Why do I hate cops? Easy. They roll heavier than we did outside the wire downrange, they use helicopters and machine guns and militarized stuff and drive tanks into crowds, they systemically kill innocent people across the country…
Not really.
Hope that didn’t turn you away. Hope you stay and read my thoughts about the growing public hate for law enforcement. David Reeder, my boss, and editor of this site, was a cop. He and I had this conversation the other night, and I told him that I wanted to write this article. I am not, nor do I ever think that I will be, a cop – that makes me the right guy to write it. Although most of our writers are veterans, we have a significant number of LEOs on the team. Hernandez is a cop, also military. Montgomery and Heath are cops – so is COWAN! (also former military). So too are many other contributors here.
What Reeder and I (and some of the others) agreed on is that this piece would not be judged fairly by the masses if it was written by a law enforcement officer. So here goes.
Do these cops really need to dress like an SF team? Where is the polished brass and leather?
Lately, everywhere I look on social media, the news and even in public places, I hear how much people hate cops. They talk about things like “the militarization of police” and discuss how the boys in blue “don’t really need” armored personnel carriers, rifle-protective vests, AR-15 rifles, NODS, etc. Those stupid “when did this become this” memes are everywhere.
People have been beating this drum loud lately, and frankly, I’m tired of hearing it. It’s just plain ridiculous and asinine to ask law enforcement to do such a dangerous job without those special tools at their disposal. Hell, I own all those items (though not, unfortunately, MRAP) as a FREE CITIZEN and I’m not even responding to riots, fighting drug cartels, gangland violence or doing much of anything cool.
So why do I own armor, night vision, black scary guns and a shit ton of other “military” type gear? Because I can.
As a free American, I can own anything I want, including a machine gun, a silencer or even what the press calls “a tank”. I have friends that own tanks and flamethrowers, other friends that own anti-tank guns and have legal access to explosives and badass gear, you name it. They are all citizens just like me, and not involved in law enforcement in any way. The funny thing about it is, we all follow the law. Some guys just collect this fun stuff for the hell of it, and others collect if for when there is no law enforcement to be found, like what happened in Katrina or the LA riots.
If you say cops shouldn’t have access to “military” style equipment, then you might as well just say, “let’s cancel the Second Amendment.”
Cops don’t need much more than a revolver, to fight criminals armed with these poodleshooters.
Look, I hate that cops give me tickets when I speed. I hate that cops can carry their gun into places I cannot, all across the country. I hate that there are good cops, as well as bad cops that might arrest me over some bullshit arbitrary infraction. I hate that there are laws I do not agree with but am forced to follow.
None of that matters when I stop to think about a couple of things. We still live in a free and just nation (despite our civil liberties being slowly robbed away). We live in a country that is more civil and safe than any of the ones that I carried a rifle in when I deployed. We live in a country where citizens can own machine guns, tanks and flamethrowers, and there are actually a bunch who do. Some of those people are good and some of them are bad – but we also live in a nation that is governed by the people we pick.
We are responsible for both the good and the bad, WE are responsible for the sensible laws and the oppressive. We have the power to change it, should we choose to do so. Every day men and women kiss their families goodbye and head off to work. They are regular people just like you and me. Some go to an office, some go build houses, some go tend to the sick, and some go arrest hardened violent criminals. Our cops. They are people just like you and me, only they are asked by the citizenry to go and do a job we are unwilling or unable to do ourselves. Without that thin blue line of men and women “On the Job” standing guard, certain chaos would likely erupt.
There are people that would slit your children’s throat, rape your wife and laugh as you bleed out on the floor. You ask men and women every day to go find them.
They aren’t getting rich, they aren’t all sleeping in their patrol cars, they aren’t all dirty and taking bribes. Sure, there are bad ones. Every organization has them because every organization is composed of PEOPLE. And unfortunately, people make mistakes. They cut before measuring twice, nick arteries during surgery, back trucks into poles, talk to friends on company phones, on company time.
Most people don’t care when a carpenter cuts a board wrong though, or when a concrete truck is loaded withfewer yards than ordered. That’s because, for most of us, the cost of failure doesn’t involve death as a constant. Law enforcement is asked to do what can be a dirty, violent job. Regardless if an officer is writing you a roadside ticket, breaching the door of a crack house, responding to a domestic assault or investigating a petty crime, the danger is there. They are literally walking targets in their uniforms and are occasionally injured or killed for wearing it.
When they don’t wear that target indicator, though, we bitch that they are being “sneaky” and are deceitful as a whole.
Do Border Patrol agents need to ride ATVs across the desert like MARSOC to get the job done?
Maybe the Border Patrol needs their special gear as they try to keep this sort of stuff on the other side…
I firmly believe in outgunning your opponent whenever possible. Even more important, I prefer to outsmart over out-gun. If you are trying to kill me with a pistol, I want a rifle. If you have a rifle, I want a machine-gun. I want armor, APCs and helicopter support, especially if you’re shooting or throwing burning bottles and bricks at me.
Why? Because when I was hunting little brown men in man-dresses with AK-47s, that’s what I needed to make it home. What difference does it make to the man fighting evil if its MS-13 holding the AK and not the Taliban? Setting aside ambushes like we recently saw in Pennsylvania, the way things are going with ISIS these days, a terror cell might very well be an unknowing cop’s next warrant.
The problem with cops isn’t their gear and weapons. It’s the fact that they are people no different than anyone else. They make mistakes, like everyone else. Can you honestly say that if you worked in a police department for 20 years, you wouldn’t make a single mistake? Of course not. No one can.
Do cops really need helicopters? Who the fuck do they think they are, Air Cav?
Or maybe just regular cavalry?
I’ll conclude with this. If you don’t like the job cops are doing (and granted, not all of ’em are doing a great job), then go get the badge and do it yourself. You don’t have to do it full time. You can be a Reserve or Auxiliary – at a minimum you can go on a citizen’s ride-along and see for yourself what it’s like. You don’t like your sheriff’s department? Then go run for Sheriff. Get on the local city council. Demand a higher standard for your own local cops, with better training, decision making, and judgment.
Just be willing to pay for that higher standard and training. You’ll get no argument here they could use more. The wrong people get hired everywhere, for every job, for many reasons.
Mitigate the problems you see with LEOs with action and not Facebook posts. Go talk to local LEOs and ask them point blank what they need to be successful at their job. When they tell you, go get it for them. I personally don’t tell people what they need or don’t need, or how to do a job I’ve never personally done. It’s striking how many people lack the same reservation.
SCUBA gear? What are they, UDT with a badge? Do cops really need Navy SEAL equipment?
Find your next RDS or LPVO – and do it with our link, eh?
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Türkiye’nin en kaliteli şans oyunları servisine hoş geldiniz!
Thanks my brother. How can i help
Today I bought a raincoat and wore it on a sunny day.
As a LEO wife for 32 years, I have a different perspective of cops and law enforcement in general. I appreciate ALL aspects of law enforcement regardless of local police, military, DOD or border patrol. These men and women are a rare breed of sheep dog that the world needs more of. They are over worked, underpaid and extremely under appreciated. (No,I don’t like getting tickets either. If I get one, I deserve it for speeding.) Too many people forget that LEO are people, humans. They are husbands and wives. They are sons and daughters. They are sisters and brothers. No one in any line of work is perfect or without blame. LEO are held to higher standards and when they screw up, everyone knows. The media feeds on this type of “failure”. LEO are supposed to be super human and above reproach. Guess what? They aren’t. I know mostly amazing cops. I have had the misfortune of knowing some rotten ones as well. I still have the greatest respect and admiration for all LEOs. Whether you like the LEO community or not, they are an essential part of our society and we could not do with them. No more than we could manage without fire fighters, paramedics, physicians or any other first responder. Thank you for an article well written and your perspective on LEO.
The article sure skirts around some legitimate complaints, the biggest of which is the “some-animals-are-more-equal” doctrine. Police in ban/fascist/antigun states where citizens are heavily limited in what they can carry (7 rd mags, bullet button, etc.) are often above those laws. They should be subject to the same fascist boot as the rest of the citizens, IMO. Especially when off duty. I’m perfectly fine with them owning everything that a private citizen can, if they are held to the same fascist gun control standards in states that force them upon their people.
KCMOPD doesn’t go after the heavily armed thugs in your picture above. They hand out traffic citations like candy to trick or treaters on Halloween, hit Denny’s or Dunkin Donuts, and hide under overpasses or bridges and play on their cell phones.
This article is a bit skewed. Its not as easy to own everythibg the police can. The average citizen cant afford those kinds of weapons. Almost every police dept is for restricting the gun rights of private citizens. So what does this add up to…a heavily armed police state with a negative attitude towards responsible private citizens who want to carry arms. Not good. I used to be a police officer. I support my local LEOs but i am uncomfortable with a militarized police force.
“The use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a moment; but it does not remove the necessity of subduing again; and a nation is not governed, which is perpetually to be conquered.”
Sir Edmund Burke
In other words, you can’t MRAP and no-knock your way to a civil society. It seems like cops, along with most people, have forgotten this.
The problem with cops is not so much that they are heavily armed, but the fact that they can get away with something, a regular citizen would go to jail for. Like shooting an unarmed person several times. If the cops who did this kind of things went to jail, then it would be fine and other, non-trigger happy, professional cops could continue with their duty and would get more support from the public. But when a cop shoots unarmed person and a bunch of other cops tries to help cover it up that means cops don’t care about the law as much as they care about saving one of their own. i.e. it’s cops vs people..
Yes it is amazing what a fifteen dollar D-cell remote door-chime can do in the right hands. Another $20 will buy you enough sparklers at a fireworks stand. A coffee can, and a sheet of 1/8 inch copper you might need an hour to locate. ten minutes with a shovel and blammo, America turns into Afghanistan. Yeah, scary that everybody knows just hoe to do it now, isn’t it? Is this what that big Mission Completed banner was all about? Nothing we have done to battle terrorism has been the correct policy.
Reading my own written work, starting with the last paragraph, and ending with first paragraph has always helped me to organize my arguments. Until today, I had never read anyone’s work in this manner. Here are nine quotes that I think are essential to your argument(s), in the order that I (for better or worse) read them…
1. “I personally don’t tell people what they need or don’t need, or how to do a job I’ve never personally done.” 2. “Demand a higher standard for your own local cops, with better training, decision making, and judgement.” 3. “If you don’t like the job cops are doing, then go get the badge and do it yourself.” 4.”But then when they don’t wear that target indicator (badge), we bitch that they are being ‘sneaky’ and are deceitful as a whole.” 5. “WE are responsible for both the good and the bad, WE are responsible for the sensible laws and the oppressive. WE have the power to change it, should we choose to do so.” 6. My personal favorite – “We live in a country where citizens can own machine guns, tanks and flame throwers, and there are actually a bunch who do.” 7. “I hate that there are laws I do not agree with but am forced to follow.” 7. “People have been beating this drum loud lately, and frankly I’m tired of hearing it.” 8. “So here goes.” 9. “Why I hate cops…”
Those big armored behemoths given out by the DOD use so much gas – and what’s the local PD going to do with them? Fun toy, free and hard to turn down, but seriously, they’d be better off getting extra ammo. My friend’s a cop and he taught me how to shoot. We usually go through half a box of ammo once a week. Nothing big time, ammo is expensive, even 9mm. He said they get 5 rounds a month for practice. That’s crazy. If they want to stay up on their skills, they have to do it on their own. Our club lets the police use the range for free, which is nice. So, ammo and armor and tactical vests to distribute all the heavy gear the cops use, sure. But an armored vehicle? I really don’t see the sense in that, nor the utility of it.
BTW I have nothing against the police using “scary looking guns.” The police in Europe are armed up a lot heavier than here. (But they are also a lot less approachable… my Czech lawyer was amazed at how the NYC cops were helpful and friendly when his wife got lost.) I insist they get proper training with those weapons, though. Judging from what I hear, many of them don’t.
If you want to stop the BS and see the real problem, look at the NY State police. They are enforcing our laws. As they wish. Got a stuffed animal in the rear window of your car? No ticket…unless they want the money and are told to fill their quota.
So our Governor gets the SAFE act passed in the middle of the night, and most gun owners either give up their over 7 round magazines and register their evil black rifles- which can not be sold to any family or friends in the state, or become FELLONS.
So who enforces this unconstitutional tyranny? The POLICE. The State’s instruments of enforcement. Of laws. Any laws the idiots write, but only when the idiots feel like it. Everything not mandatory is forbidden.
And we want the police to have any and all weapons they might need… like machine guns and tanks. Spy equipment like license plate scanners, cell phone trackers, drones. All for the cause of Protecting and Serving– the ruling elite. You want to know why we really hate the police? Just keep doing what your trending… and remember, you “are only following orders.”
“Yes,Herr Hitler, whatever you wish Mien Feuher”. Remember every Nazi soldier was only following legal orders and by definition behaving politically correct. Only the laws were wrong. It happens. Think about what you are doing before you do something you can never take back. Human lives.
“…drive tanks into crowds…”
I have YET to see PD anywhere using a gorram M48, M60 or M1 series MBT. APCs and now MRAPs, some departments have those but nobody has tanks. As a former US Army 19K, soon as a PD gets a M1 series, I’m all over that LoL
Tell you what, partner, when anyone who can afford it is allowed to purchase, own, transport and/or carry whatever weaponry he desires, without anyone’s permission granted, then I will go along with the police and the military doing the same. I trust the police and the military. But I don’t trust their bosses the pols. I’d be happy with a fully auto AR15 or AR10, a lot of ammo, and maybe some hand grenades or RPG’s. Also, a neighborhood of good people who will work together in case such thing as a Katrina, or Watts, or living-in-the-city-of-detroit situation, or the jihadists start coming out of their mosques with AK’s …
Thus our lack of need for a parasitic entity that serves no one but themselves.Only you can protect yourself anyways.
The fact is that a lot of cops commit crimes with there badge on. Not all cops, some and the cops that watch those cops commit crimes are guilty of accessory. The unwritten law that cops don’t tell on other cops has to be the biggest part of whats wrong with our police force. If you dont police up your own police you have injustice. No one person is a Above the Law, but many think they are, Elected and Unelected leaders, and unfortunately some Police. Authority is intoxicating. And you should not shoot someone because you can. And that includes dogs. Want people to respect your position then Earn it. To protect and Serve, not i get to shoot this one he has a knife. When you get video of police shooting a homeless mental man with priors in the back in the desert we have to rethink what is acceptable and unacceptable desicion making by the officers that are chosen to keep order. And if someone videos a cop doing his or her job that should be acceptable. Police that don’t want you filming them are not working by the rules but want lead way so they don’t have too.
Sir, I do not know if you are going to read this but here it goes, One thing that most officers forget is how you can make things escalate by just raising your voice in a tone that is suppose to be firm but respectfull. They forget that a human being is just an animal that can reason depending on the mental perception of that one individual, so be careful how you treat a civilians because the “Proper” perception of a reasonable Officer can make an individual loose their “Proper” perception. This is something to remember, in the Army we had a different way of doing things but the proper approach was always important.
Like Jack Reacher Said when asked, What is the difference between a military policeman and a civilian one. And he answered, “EVERY SUSPECT THAT WE DEAL WITH IS A TRAINED KILLER”.
http://youtu.be/FPPqO8tUQoc
loved your article and thank you for writing it and I don’t care if anyone agrees with me or not..Our local law enforcement officers need to have all this stuff and more simply cause the world is getting worse and I want them to be able to protect me and mine and to be able to go home to their families as well. I will stop now cause I don’t want to get on a rant about people that disrespect. So thanks again for the article I came to the site to blast you for your hate but very happy to see it was not but a good article.
I don’t hate the cops although from personal experiences, I have a right to. I have had a couple bad experiences with bullies with badges (and I’m not talking about a disputed driving violations).
Cops are people too. They have to deal with bad guys and liars though most days are largely uneventful. I try to keep in mind that cops are ‘just doing their job’ and being people, they are prone to every human weakness there is. I don’t see them as special but I know when it comes to my word verses the testimony of a cop, people are more likely to believe the cop. This basic erroneous presumption of honesty gives cops a tremendous advantage to abuse their power.
That being said, I see police acting with increasing arrogance. Violent home searches on the wrong house (why is no one doing proper investigations?). Shooting dog while searching for a lost child because the dog attacked them (Does a dog know the difference between a bad guy entering his territory and a good guy?). Escalating non-violent interactions to the point where someone is shot or dies (Asking for identification and then shooting the man for going for his drivers license). Fighting with onlookers watching or filming events.
I would like to be able to trust the cops but the actions of a few loose canons is tarnishing their reputation and respectability. Police departments and unions are too quick to circle the wagons and manufacture excuses after the fact.
I’m not sure what the solution is. Better training? Better screening of applicants? Weeding out bad cops?
The solution will never happen. If the United Nations has any ability to enforce international human rights laws, they would have voted to assemble a force to liberate American citizens from our own self-serving government. That they do not is proof that we are truly powerless to change the status-quo, unless we are willing to take up arms and throw the trash out, like every other oppressed society in the last 25 years has. The World does not wish to help a Nation of paranoid gun-worshipers. They expect the citizens to self-police our lawless government.We need to change our ways before other Nations start air-dropping weapons onto us, so we can do what is right. I for one would like to think there is a political solution.
Sorry. Cops are a necessary evil, but an evil none-the-less: government thugs with guns and badges. I’d much rather have more elected sheriffs and deputies than cops.
Border patrol and backwoods wisconsin are two different animals. It’s not so much a issue of the gear they have, its the attitude that comes along with having such ricky recon style gear. Saying if you don’t like your sherif that you should run for office is like saying “oh you don’t like the way obama is dealing with ISIS, then you should probably quit everything and run for president”. Maybe get off your LEO boyfriends face and take a different look at things. Enjoy your machine guns and NOD’s devil. Yut Yut.
So much for BBC. I used to be a fan.
I love it when true colors show through.
Wolfhunter11, would you care to comment on this shooting? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html
I will weigh in by saying that in the article… it say’s that authorities argued for more than three hours with the man yet the video was only 4 minutes in length. In no way can I pass a guilty judgement or a call that it was justified by this.. I say this because here again… The media portrays what will sell. for the 2 hours and 56 minutes before the shooting, this man could have been telling these cops that he will kill all that come near him.. he could be passing threats that he will kill everyone he see’s when he is released.. He is also non-compliant when officers tell him to drop the knives. I say knives because there were two… With the lack of empirical and concrete evidence that this was unjustified.. no one can make a call… This is what is known as Shock Media which is designed to incite an emotional feeling or decision plain and simple
Some people have watched one too many episodes of “The Shield”… or maybe ” The Wire”…
Thus the theory that is known to the Criminal Justice field “The CSI Effect” Tom, sounds like you are a very passionate LEO and from one LEO to another.. I wanted to say thank you for your hard work and dedication.
Actually, LE is not a dangerous profession. Knock off the false bravado.
“The death totals work out to about 1.56 per every 100,000 sworn federal, state and local officers across the country — less than half the rate of 3.5 per 100,000 for U.S. workers in all jobs in 2011, the last year for which complete figures were available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics”
The difference between a LEO making a mistake and normal person making mistakes is that LEO mistakes can result in jail time, tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and the destruction of an innocent person’s reputation or their death. It does not matter if LEO are just normal people. The position of power they hold over the rest of the population demands that they be held to a much, much higher standard. Unlike the majority of the population, LEO often do not face the consequences of their mistakes. They are protected by a system that seeks to protect its own at all costs simply because they are a member of the system.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/27/16196680-police-deaths-down-23-percent-this-year-across-us?lite
What system protects me more as an officer than someone else? It is the same system which affords me the thought of Innocent until proven guilty. Tell me when the last time an Iron worker was faced with a life or death situation? we as police deal with them every time we encounter different situations. Understand, It is INTENT that makes it a crime. oh just to give you the heads up.. 99% of the time, LEO’s are disciplined and are held to their actions and in some cases fired despite the fact that the incident may have been ruled justified.. do you think media is going to say anything about that? hell no… that kind of news is not sexy nor does it sell newspapers or make the reader want to turn a page.. it is not a profit maker and thus it is left out of the news
Iron working is approximately 30 times more deadly than being a police officer. Statistics are a bitch, aren’t they?
“Fatality rate per 100,000 workers: 37”
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/jobs/2013/08/22/dangerous-jobs/5.html
Do you really want me to start pulling up instances where LE have protected their own who have fragrantly broken the law? You already embarrassed yourself with the iron worker quip.
my point is Robert that every job has it innate safety hazards and that no number or statistic will ever prove to me that policing is not dangerous. Do i think iron working is dangerous? absolutely. I don’t downplay anything to that regard but on any normal day, how many times does an Iron Worker have to worry about the lives of not only themselves but their families and everyone else. How many Iron workers have to face the public after they couldn’t save someone from an abusive husband/wife.. how many constantly question themselves if they made the right call. Also… does your stats show the amount of Training, Education, Skill is needed to do said job? what are the qualifications for even the lowest positions… the ones that are usually where the most fatalities happen…. At minimum.. most states require an associates degree PLUS academy training and a multitude of qualifications.. thus giving us the tools needed to be able to avert fatalities
Well, I’ll rephrase my original statement. Yes, LE is dangerous. However, the danger is grossly over estimated and talked up. My original statement was more of a theatrical reply to the author’s theatrics and salivating about the dangers of LE.
You aren’t familiar with iron working at all, are you? Depending on the position the iron worker is in, they have to worry about the safety of many people. Iron working goes beyond simple welding. They have to navigate complex, hectic work sites with equipment and materials that are in motion and that way tens of thousands of pounds.
Most police officers do not have to face the public. The stories the media covers are a minute portion of available cases that could be covered, both good and bad.
Labor jobs, especially heavily unionized ones, require all sorts of training and qualifications.
I can honestly say that i do not have the knowledge of the day to days of an Iron Worker but i do have the common sense to know it is more than just simple welding, which in itself is dangerous. Tell me what police officer never faces the public? from the low level meter maids of yesteryear to the commissioners who have to speak to the public daily.. patrolman, sergeants, Lieutenants, detectives, vice, homicide.. they all deal with the public daily. In some aspects, being a cop can be more difficult and more dangerous than being a soldier on the front lines.. at least being a soldier, as I was.. I usually could tell who the enemy was, who wished harm on me or my fellow soldiers.. It is different as a cop.. we have to remain impartial, give the benefit of the doubt.. personalize our observations and allow justice to be held.. we have to prove guilt and all of the while… we have to be justified in every action that we take. It is the same with policing as it is with iron working when you say it is depending on the position.. the chief has to worry about every patrol officer or any type of officer he oversees which i can probably relate to an supervisor… the commissioner = to the CEO. as far as training and qualifications… yes each have their skills needed to accomplish their jobs but there is one major difference.. most shortcuts, and im not saying all, that can be taken by some iron workers are acceptable as they can make the job easier… I do not know of one single shortcut that any police officer can take that would either make it safe, or not affect the chances that someone might walk on a crime they have committed due to a shortcut by a cop. Standards are set much higher for a cop to complete his job more than an iron worker who is back by a union to complete theirs. these higher standards make it more dangerous of a job not just from fatalities but also for ruining any chances to a better future for those that rely on them and their careers. These high standards also take a toll on us as cops as well.. for instance.. I am the only one on in my small town every time i work. We have 6 officers including myself in my jurisdictional area and other than the Chief, I am the only one who is a full time officer. the other 4 officers are Reserve officers who have full time jobs elsewhere. If i am sick, exhausted, hurt… I still have to work.. I cannot call out sick. In a place that does Iron working for instance.. (For the record.. I’m not picking on Iron Working) there tends to be many others who could pick up the slack for a day until I feel better. an Iron worker who works alone who doesn’t work that day just has one issue.. the job doesn’t get done and more time is needed to complete it.. If I cannot come in… Crime doesn’t stop because I’m not there. If that was the case.. we would never need a single officer
Not to mention standard department policy to keep the names of discredited officers out of the public domain. Duh. If a police officer is publicly exposed as a criminal, those who have been unjustly punished by the named officer are likely to actually hurt them very badly, physically, or financially. So if you really wonder why these guilty officers never get the same 24 hour news all hot and bothered, now you know why. But you already knew that, so why perpetrate a myth?
Eh the usual hyperbole from the haters. I tire of the “fishermen and cabbies die more” crap. Comparing people who risk their lives for others (Firemen and EMS..you are in here too) with dangerous jobs like crab fishermen is apples to oranges and you know it. Go call a 7-11 cashier when your house is burning down then…….spare me.
Its the usual pap trotted out by the sour grape crowd.
While I have not yet been shot or killed, I have had my share of chases, fights and wrestling matches with people. I’ve watched suicides with their brains in their laps still convulsing and moaning. Held gasping accident victims heads up in a wrecked car while waiting for EMS…I have had to point weapons at people because I thought I may have to shoot. Know many Iron workers who have to do that for a job description?
Then there’s the I know people who have been shot/killed. I also know a number of cops injured or forced to leave the job due to a disability they incurred while chasing/fighting some criminal so YOU don’t have to. Luckily THEY didn’t wind up on the dead list.
The whole argument is usually started by guys with ego problems. Lets just get it out of the way…you are tougher, a better shot, done more dangerous things and are just more Macho than I will ever be. I guess my whole career has been a waste.
Danger is danger. Look at that stats. Your job has half the fatalities as the average job in this country, yet the LE community more than anyone sits around and jerks off to their job’s dangers. The ego issue is not mine.
How the danger is incurred is irrelevant. Your bravery or exposure to danger is no more than anyone else. You have the entire weight of the State and your peers to back you up even if you are wrong, everyone else does not. Your “extraordinary” situations are just that, extraordinary. They are not everyday occurrences. They are the minority. They are not unique to your job either. I know non-LE people that have been in the same situations. Hell, I’ve been involved with performing a citizen’s arrest before. The situation wouldn’t have even happened had LE done its job in the first place.
Yes, LE is necessary. Yes, it does have inherent dangers. However, the circumstances of the job are no excuse for the hyper-masculine, gang mentality, and over militarized culture that is evolving within LE. It is a problem and it needs to be addressed.
“You have the entire weight of the State and your peers to back you up even if you are wrong…” I know personally, Being in such a rural area, If I am wrong on something and I didn’t see the gun someone had tucked into their belt.. I’m dead.. I am all alone, 20 minutes for the closest back up.. and that’s if I even get a message out that I have been hit/wounded. But there are many situations that cannot wait 20 minutes.. I have to do them alone and I have to accept all consequences and I have to justify why I did what I did. Media today has made it so cops are even more criticized/scrutinized than before making the justice system actually more against us than with us. The justice system looks at us expecting very much from us because they know the type of training we receive intimately and expect us not to make mistakes. they don’t have those same expectations on John Q Public in a self defense situation. I am expected to react to situations flawlessly and to give accuracy of every detail of the events at the same time, be able to stay calm and collected and also preserve the lives of others over myself and all this usually happens in a matter of seconds.. not minutes or hours or days.. but mere seconds
as a rural citizen, I am also 20 minutes away from any backup, whether a paid civil servant or a remote neighbor. So why should I pay someone who cannot perform his required objective? I hope you can see your point from both sides, and I have no right to judge you, or anybody unless I see them break a law. Irregardless, my personal safety remains my responsibility, just like you, or any other officer. You have a difficult job, and I respect all who serve with good intentions, but accountability must be a priority or there will never be respect for anything but force. The worst thing is that the more you learn about the big picture, the more you just want to pretend nothing matters but you and those you love. We are a Nation. We gain strength by supporting each other. Not by escalating every argument to a gun-fight. The concept of sending our youth to die in battle to preserve the right to imprison ourselves is not exactly the future I was hoping for.
Yawn….
You and your career are not a waste. Everybody needs good police officers like you to protect them. But even you must realize that you have much better reasoning skills than most of the men you work with.
Don’t confuse the crime with the person.
Folks keep on mentioning using SWAT for “non-violent offenses”, as if a simple weed grow warrant should never require SWAT. What matters is the PEOPLE you are dealing with. If that weed grow is in the house of an outlaw motorcycle gang member on parole for murder and believed to be in possession of a gun…you use SWAT. You can debate the tactics used…forced entry vs take down outside the house…but it’s not about WHAT the warrant is for.
Sure some PD’s are using SWAT for ALL of their warrant services…and I don’t agree with it…but we don’t and I have no say over what THEY do.
There is also a BIG difference between a rural PD with 4 cops getting MRAPS and 1033 gear and a PD like mine of 132 sworn with a population in the 80-90K range.
I’m reminded of a speech I recently heard from Chief Edward Deveau of Watertown Ma. Watertown is the place where a running gun and bomb tossing battle occurred with the Tsarnave brothers in the early morning hours. It’s also the place where all the area SWAT teams descended to conduct the manhunt.
The Chief said that Watertown became the focal point for every keyboard wielding civil rights activist from around the country regarding “suspension of civil rights”, SWAT troopers forcing people out of their homes, etc. The Chief said that not a single person objected during the manhunt and he never received a single complaint from any resident of Watertown after the event. To the contrary, the actual residents praised the Watertown PD for the handling of the event. The basement dwelling prepper in an Arizona bunker on the other hand….
I think that is an example of what we are becoming in our keyboard activist society. People are seeming to take examples from places thousands of miles away and then mentally apply them to to their local situations…warranted or not.
That of course is not meant to belittle or ignore those problem PD’s and the people in those jurisdictions who are complaining about them. As a matter of fact, the major City nearby me has been having some legitimate problems lately.
You should be the local Sheriff. There are not enough Americans like you to waste your brain doing anything less. You are the kind of man that political parties seek out to promote. When it happens, and it will, I will vote for you, and anyone with any hope for America would as well.
Apparently, since I don’t have the desire or the time to join the police force, I should just shut up about how they do their job… SMH
“I hate that cops can carry their gun into places I cannot” . Well, that sucks for you, but you don’t have to hate. Hate the cop that DOESNT carry his weapon EVERYWHERE. That fucker isn’t ready to do what he has sworn to do. The rest, that carry where you can’t are doing what they swore to do, what is their job. Just my 2c as a cop who carries where CPL folks can’t, BECAUSE CPL folks can’t.
it’s true.. people don’t realize that our badge stays on 24 hours a day and are looked to when shit hits the fans whether in uniform or not
Cops are just keeping up with the times. What was common years ago – a punk or gangster with a “Saturday Night Special” in his pocket with maybe a few extra bullets – is not so common now. The Police have to keep up and whenever possible, exceed the load-out of who they are going up against. Years ago, Texas Ranger Captain Frank A. Hamer said about any Peace Officer who carried more than 18 or 20 extra bullets was “just guilty of sloppy Peace Officering”. That does not hold true today. When I was on the street, I carried 46 rds. for my primary sidearm and more magazines available, another back-up in my armor carrier with an extra mag for it, I carried a shotgun in my trunk with extra shotgun rounds available, and an M4 Patrol Rifle in the rack with extra 30 rd. mags available. Did I really need all that? That’s not the question. The question is “DO situations occur when that much would be needed?” and the answer is “yes”. I had an obligation to be as equipped as I could possibly be to meet as many threats and types of threats and situations as possible. I owed it (and still do) to my community, my state, my neighbors, and my family. They are who I worked for and who I still watch over. The basic fact is that the only thing an evil-doer respects is brute force of violence and being ready and prepared to meet that evil is why we need what we have. To try to say that there is an insignificant mathematical possibility that I or any other Police Officer would have to meet any threat calling for a certain piece or load-out of equipment is fine for armchair tacticians and critics, but when it is your wife or children who are being threatened as part of that “0.06 percent”… it all changes. That’s just the opinion of one.
The point is that no matter how well armed you are, we have to protect ourselves, anyways. So really, you are a big waste of tax dollars. Go to college and learn a skill. You can’t feed a hungry child bullets. This is reality, not a game, and if you do not contribute to society in a beneficial way, you are just the human version of a random disaster to the average taxpayer. After a week of real, productive labor, go ahead and shoot off all the bullets you want. It sounds like you need to get out of the city for awhile and try out the real world. I like it. So do a whole lot of other Americans. That’s why we had a revolution in the first place. We are never going back to whatever fantasy world you think exists. You still have time to join the rest of Humanity.But leave all those guns at home please.
I once had a plumber overcharge me for a water heater, now I hate all plumbers! – der-der-DERP!
“After reading your facebook post, it completely changed my way of thinking” – Said No One EVER!
Nate nice write up.
I haven’t been a Civi since 99 so my dealings with LEO’s is miniscule at best. The police serve a purpose to enforce the “rule of law”. I don’t really see an issue with them being provided with our leftovers. The government spends millions of dollars to train me on tactics/mindset/platforms/languages and a bunch of other shit. How much $ is spent on an average dept. equipped with MS gear? How much time is allotted for LEOs to train on said equipment and what quals are in place that prove proficiency?
I do know that I’ve been in shooting/tactic classes stateside with LEOs (probably on their own dime) and they were ALWAYS the least proficient but talked the most shit.
ask me why I dislike two or three police officers , and my lawyer will explain what they did , or I will . send me your email address and I would be happy to share this with you .
moreover , any person that likes to think of themselves as a man because they wear a badge or a gun , has never been in the presence of one !
A simple thank you to the author, Nathan Mad Duo Nate for this article.
My main complaint is that the response should match the threat. Those snipers at Ferguson were ridiculous. The tactical gear and armored vehicles for protesters was just plain stupid. When you are going after the cartel, sure, load for bear and kick some ass. But when you are responding to citizens protesting, keep that military shit locked up.
Simon, apparently you are VERY short on real life’s experience.
Well written.
The problem people have is when someone throws a cigarette out a window and ends up getting finger banged by a cop on the side of the highway, or rolling a stop sign and being given 3 cavity searches and 3 enemas and then being sent the bill after being let go without charge. The article trivializes the reason why people hate cops so much. The blatant corruption and VIOLATIONS OF PEOPLE’S CIVIL LIBERTIES are why people DESPISE the police. Yes it is far and few in between and a small minority, however the other reason why people hate police is because they face no punishment when they royaly fuck up. I was an 0311 and have plenty of friends who are cops and I’m on your side, but you’re not accepting the fact that peoples hate stems from police actions. I don’t care about over armed police, I care that when the time comes to pick a side, police will pick the side that lets them keep their power, and not the side that serves and protects the general public, regardless of how fucked up and retarded we are.
After reading your facebook post, you personally changed my way of thinking.I just had to say it, because it is true.Heated arguments CAN be productive in a society that values knowledge. Thank you for your insight. There are good officers on the job. You are proof.
I don’t know all the reasons why there may be “growing public hate for law enforcement” and I don’t have a problem with LEO’s being heavily armed or having militarized gear in their quivers to draw friom.
But I *can* say, with 100% sincerity and good intentions that we need far fewer, knee-jerking, “us vs them”, badge-heavy, panicky Barney Fife’s and a lot more cool-under-pressure, level-headed, deliberate, discretionary, Andy Griffith’s.
I don’t know when or why more and more badge-heavy Barney Fife’s with a heavy “us vs them” attitude began making it through FTO without washing out, but it appears to me LE agencies simply must be desperate.
Flame away if you must, but you all know the cops I’m talking about. Every agency has their share.
If you really think that the citizens control the government, then you know nothing about this country. The banks and the elite own this country. They make the laws. The US is not a country, it’s a business. How do you explain the military and police being trained to shoot and kill our own citizens in riots? How do you explain the police getting the funding for their new equipment when we are in so much debt, our economy is about to collapse? Our government is littered with corruption and paid off politicians. One person trying to change anything will be shot down or bought out instantly.
There is one thing you are forgetting though.. These corrupt people are not forcing you to stay in the country. They are not hold you here against your will so if you think that this country is so bad compared to other countries… then why stay? Do some of the laws we have seem a bit over rambunctious? yes but at the same time, there are more freedoms in this country that are still afforded us that are not allowed in a lot of others. No one is stopping you from smoking dope or carrying a gun in a courthouse, we are just stating that if you get caught doing it, don’t be pissed if you get into trouble
The people have seen so many movies, especially the King Kong, Godzilla type. The armed forces show-up immediate and engage the problem. However, there is no military to get on the phone and have them rush into a violent urban setting. It took hours for any “faster than a speeding bullet” jet to get over NYC on 9/11. It took even longer to get the Guard into the City. In a small town outside of Mansfield, Ohio, a n once every “500 year” flood hit. The local emergency respondents called to Ohio Natl. Guard for help. Nope was the answer. They were in Iraq and Afghanistan. Same with Indiana and Pennsylvania. Illinois came to the rescue, two days later. Police need special equipment in order to protect the people.
It is like a tee-shirt I saw today. It had a fireman emblem. The words on the back said “I’M HERE TO SAVE YOUR LIFE…NOT TO KISS YOUR ASS!”
Great article.. just forgot to mention that those cops are also people like you and me, and they have families they want to go home to every night.. they don’t want the nightmare of having to kill someone.. the police should never be outgunned.. if people want them to do away with the heavy equipment, then make the bad guys do it first.. tell the bad guys to get rid of their assault rifles and go back to the Saturday night specials and PD can go back to the six shooter revolver.. otherwise leave the police alone and let them be as safe as possible.. I am not interested in PC and I am not interested statistics, because they are both slanted in the favor of one or another..
Pete, you couldnt be more right if only it was that easy.. what people don’t understand is that sometimes it takes force to push policy.
And when the public overwhelmingly despises you, they will use that same arguement to justify the force brought upon you. You are a public servant. Get your head on straight. Karmas’ a bitch.
For grins, here’s food for thought. A good cop is no longer a good cop once he/she is aware of illegal/questionable behaviour within a department if they do nothing to stop the activity in progress or see that everyone involved is held legally accountable for their actions. How many good cops are left?
I have a friend who tried to do just that…he’s now fired and unable to support his family. Funny thing is they fired him legally.
I read some of the responses and will try to respond to some of them. Having been both overseas Marine STA as well as involved in law enforcement, I can say that the style of fighting is different. I could go into a very long tirade, so I’ll try to stay as brief as possible. When you are overseas, you almost always have “backup” with you. It may be minimal, but at a minimum, you operate at team level. It’s still scary as hell, but you don’t have to remember exactly how many rounds you fired in a fire fight, exactly how many times you punched somebody who was trying to kill you. Exactly how fast you were going and exactly what street you turned on when the guy you were chasing wrecked and killed himself. Troops overseas have been brought up on some BS charges and convicted, and that’s exactly what it is, BS. 99% of them should be exonerated immediately.
From experience working with stateside law enforcement, people criticize, “why didn’t the cop do this or do that, or wait on backup”. Many times when a cop arrives as the front door of a domestic violence, hears a woman screaming for help, the backup is miles away. What do you do? You kick the door and handle business. I have witnessed this exact scenario as well as other heroic actions many times. You will never see it on the news though. Problem is, due to the scrutiny of modern media and activist court systems, you have to remember exactly how many punches were thrown, exactly where everybody in the residence was, and specifically articulate why you threw the punches or you stand a chance of being indicted. Even if the dirtbag is a career criminal on parole for murder and the fight was two or three bad guys to one cop. Then you’re still scrutinized because not everything comes across the video like it actually happened. In overseas combat, when you get shot at, everybody shoots back. When you are a stateside if a cop rolls into a gangbanger neighborhood and gets shot at, he better not shoot back unless you can specifically see what you are shooting at and remember how many times you shot. Trust me, the scrutiny is unbelievable.
One of the things I noticed that affected cops most, especially cops returning from overseas was having to deal with suspects in front of their families, especially their children. The guy was a criminal, but he was still daddy to the children. Sure, the children will most likely grow up in the same lifestyle, but they are still children, and they are still Americans, not some terrorist in the sense we think of a terrorist. The video below will explain a lot of what I am trying to say. Watch carefully. I believe the guy was wanted for a murder warrant. We all know action beats reaction. If the cop behind wouldn’t have been there the cop facing the suspect could have been killed. If the cop in front would not have had the video, the cop in back could have faced criminal charges; if not criminal charges unbelievable media scrutiny for walking up and shooting the guy in the back. Now put yourself in that situation. Go through it one time if the few short seconds it took. Remember everything that happened and explain it to a grand jury without looking at the video again.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/9-second-clip-cops-shoot-man-putting-his-gun-down-but-hes-not-as-innocent-as-you-may-think/
A mans home is his castle. Human nature compels a man to protect his children,even if it means certain death for him. Nobody has to pay a parent to rescue their child from a burning building, or defend themselves. Every child killed by the ATF raid in Waco would have lived if the police had simply arrested David Koresh on the side of the road in a traffic stop. I don’t even have to watch the video you reference to know that there are much better ways of arresting a suspect than confronting him in front of his children. We know you have a job to do, but we also know there are better ways you could do it. If we have to buy a whole new police force to do what we ask, then we will. You are paid with money earned from actual labor, so do it right, or get off the force. At a certain point, we no longer want, or need you anymore.Every danger you face is the same as any American, only you think your life is somehow more valuable. Of course you feel needed, but in reality, a public servant is a parasitic member of society, just like the criminals you despise.
I intend to piss EVERYONE off…
It isn’t necessarily the fact that cops HAVE these weapons and tactics at their disposal it is how often they’ve begun using them.
SWAT began for ACTIVE SHOOTER/HOSTAGE situations ONLY and has progressed into S.O.P. for non-violent warrant service.
Every little podunk town batters down the doors at the wrong address and flash-bangs a baby in a crib…just give ’em time.
Cops DID NOT used to use the terminology and ethos of combat…they DID NOT refer to ‘us’ as ‘civilians…they DID NOT dress up like G.I. Joe and refer to themselves as operators.
It is MISSION CREEP plain and simple and the mix of a bunch of alpha males given the green light to go dynamic on someone ANYONE is too tempting. It also justifies the expense. Use it or lose it to the bean counters.
This is what most people have a problem with. Used only in extreme circumstance no reasonable citizen has a problem with it.
Break out the MRAP and the body armor to bust up a friendly illegal card game and Joe Sixpack gets justifiably upset.
All these people talking about ‘winging’ people instead of killing them have obviously watched too much TV. You don’t shoot to WING someone…this ISN’T TV AND YOU’RE NOT COLUMBO shooting someone from 25′ yards with your 2″ Detective Special revolver just before the commercial break.
You shoot to STOP THE THREAT and you don’t STOP until they are OBVIOUSLY not a threat and if they die that’s simply a by-product of stopping the threat to yourself.
If you shoot to wing why did you shoot anyway?
Cops aren’t there to get wounded or killed in order to limit the damage done to a violent person. period. That is the end.
It’s not their job nor should it be. Why anyone should be surprised to find themselves dead if they produce a weapon and threaten someone else with a weapon is beyond me. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cop, or a criminal. Doesn’t even matter if it was a NAZI zombie. If you produce a weapon a NAZI zombie isn’t a better or worse person because they shot you.
If you threaten to BEAT someone and they SHOOT YOU before you can don’t be surprised or butthurt.
Same with those who criticize cops for shooting someone who was going to potentially beat them to death.
This is NOT to excuse ‘excessive force’-BEATING SOMEONE OFFERING NO RESISTANCE, WHICH HAPPENS TOO OFTEN, LET’S SAY- which I consider an entirely different animal than RESPONSE TO A THREAT.
” IF YOU CAME TO FIGHT FAIR, YOUR TACTICS SUCK”.
You make some great points! Having been in both the Coast Guard and the US Army (Infantry), I found that because of constant instruction, we will react as trained. We did evolutions over and over until they became a thoughtless process. You simply react to the situation as you’ve been trained to do. In the USCG my training was focused on saving people (us included). We reacted with reserved authority. Our “Use of Force” policies demanded restraint, to the point where a knife in hand beyond the 21′ range was not considered deadly force unless it was in forward motion. This made me more likely to want to resolve a situation through means other than by force. However, with infantry training, it was very different. You gear up and the objective is the survival of you and your comrades in arms. The gear is to protect you or to make your job easier. When dressed for the field you maintain a very different attitude than you do in dress uniform. It’s empowering. If we constantly train and dress our LEO’s to act as infantry, they will do just that. More focus needs to be on de-escalating things rather than concluding them, ASAP…
I gave this article a chance,but it left out one major issue. It’s not that they have these weapons,but how they use them to intimidate and use the threat of violence if you don’t comply to every order they bark.
And also if the ppl commenting are saying they are at war on American streets. You are saying younger at war with American citizens,and if you at war with us you are the enemy’s f us civilian s
And who do you think are the ones who enforce” We still live in a free and just nation (despite our civil liberties being slowly robbed away” who is the ones robbing us? Oh yeah the police.
This is all well and good until they kick in your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dogs, hold you and your children on the floor at gunpoint while they tear your house apart, only to eventually discover that they have the wrong address. Of course, once they’ve finished investigating themselves, they’re rule such behavior as being “within policy,” and “necessary to guarantee officer safety.”
Yup… A lot of people were sucked in by the title, and are now pissed off that it wasn’t what they thought. Words of wisdom to those people: quit while your… well, before you dig any deeper, because God knows you aren’t ahead in this one. Seriously… you just look bad, and you’re making it worse for yourselves here. Either admit you went too far, you know who you are, or let it go.
We get it. You actually hate cops. Well, us family members of cops hate you right back. So do us a favor: if you ever need a cop, don’t call them. It’s a win win. You don’t have to deal with those evil, murderous, dirty, militaristic, racist, pigs… and we don’t have to worry for the safety of our loved ones (as much).
Go live in your separate world, and starve. Some people actually produce something for a wage. And anymore, we really don’t need your “help” anymore. Get a real job, or do what we pay you to do and shut up. In a capitalist society, Union wage parasites like Law Enforcement have no value. If the public still valued law enforcement, we wouldn’t talk so much shit. You will know when you are doing what we pay you for. Until then, this hatred will not stop. The very concept of an American soldier dieing in battle to protect the rights of citizens we then imprison…is insane.
I have two big problems with LEOs. One is that time after time they don’t clean out the bad cops even after acknowledging their presence. They let things like speeding and even dui go unpunished. Now I understand there are exceptions but with the advent of digital recording these cases are coming to light much more often than I would like to see.
As someone who hangs out with cops off duty it amazes me what they get away with. They are hard chargers with big egos which is what it takes to be a warrior but there are downsides to that sometimes when left unchecked. Show me the local cop bar in any big city and i will show you plenty of crime that gets ignored.
My second issue is that we have basically put them above the law and afforded them the ability to exercise rights that U.S. citizens cannot. The main one that comes to mind is off duty CCW. While this is not something the police caused directly there are plenty that are happy with the arrangement. I should be allowed to carry everywhere a police officer who is not on duty is. It is not like the majority of police have tons of high end training anyway as most are mediocre at best shooters to begin with.
Where can a cop carry that a CCW cannot? Have you every thought that cop’s take citizen’s freedom away when they make arrests, and they just may see them in an off duty capacity? Do you have that problem? It’s happened to me more than a handful of times. It’s funny to me because being able to carry off duty lost its luster years ago but I do it because i am trained and know how and when to use my firearm. CCW carriers do it because by God it’s their second amendment right so they will by God carry their gun. Are so sure you are completely prepared to to use it if you have to? To to tell you the truth, in the words of Wyatt Earp..”A man lost his life and I took it and boy you don’t ever want to know how that feels.”
Hang’em high, Sheriff! Git that Nigger! Get some career counseling quick, because you are a ticking time bomb that will cost the citizens of your county a great deal of money when you act on this anger of yours. Seriously, I have never seen such an obvious train wreck. Does the public really need a financial liability like you dragging down our economy?
Being a warrior has nothing to do with having a huge ego.
Not to mention that they are a reactionary force, and absolutely incapable of protecting us as quickly as we can attend to our own selves. What use is the entire countries police if they are not there when you are attacked? We would all be safer with no police, and the firm knowledge that anybody could have a gun. Nobody goes postal at a gun show. Mass shootings only occur where guns are banned.Why the cold logic of this is not expressed at a National level will be our demise. 9/11 would have never happened if they social dynamic of an airplane was the same as a public bus in Detroit. There is nothing as powerful a crime deterrent as a random group of armed Americans. As crazy as it sounds, no plane in history was hijacked before they banned passengers from carrying concealed weapons. 1970. look it up.There is a small town in my state that has a town statute that all homeowners have a gun in the house. Doubt me? Riverside, Wa. Okanogan County. Check out the crime rate in that town. Zero. Because they put a 20 foot wide sign on the highway exit, spelling it out in foot-high letters. The key is the sign, they remembered to write it in Espanol as well.
Unless you have done the job you will not know how just a small thing like a level 4 tactical vest can make you feel at ease and a M4 or AR 15 to help level the playing field. Iv never seen a LEO agency using a “tank” iv seen APC that the only fire power on them is the guys inside that use it as hard cover against some shitbag with an AK 47. I say give local police surplus military gear instead of leaving it for the chicken shit Irqi army that runs and leaves the gear for terriosits to use against innocent people.
I love the guy who thinks he’s an expert on police matters just because he ALMOST has a master’s degree in criminal justice! I laughed when I read that part. I love all the people who THINK they know how a police matter should of been handled because they read a book in their little criminal justice class or because they “have friends” who are cops! I’ve seen a few episodes of House so now I can perform complex surgery or a tell my doctor which surgical tool to use or why he didn’t use a certain other tool. I wish so very much that these people talking all big on the internet can just spend ONE day in the shoes of a law enforcement officer and see how fast they’re crying for their mommies. Let’s see how fast they’re crying for the good guys to come with rifles and armored vehicles because the bad guys are shooting at them with AK- 47s armor piercing rounds. Oh but wait. You have a degree in criminal justice don’t you? That’s right. Well just tell the good guys with the rifles and armored “tanks” to disregard. After all, you’re the expert.
I love how people have rational discussions and some asshole slinging logical fallacies left and right plays the “fine, we won’t help you” card. Go fuck yourself prick, most people would prefer to help themselves, think I am lying read the fucking comments!
I am all for force-appropriate response, but I also feel unprepared to be the one to judge what is appropriate from a policy level.
It’s all well and good to say “x-situation, as reported in the media, was really over the top” but its another entirely to attempt to dictate what the best, safest and most effective crime-fightng, law-enforcing and peace-keeping procedures, tactics and equipment our LEO’s use, from the couch. If you don’t like it, get educated and get involved in the decision making process…
Speaking out against it is getting getting involved…DUH as for decision making process, we have this crazy thing called a republic with a constant amount of gridlocks which make it damn near impossible to make any changes.
And then we reach a point where the public will be forced to use the same violence our government uses to get what it wants. The ignorance of America knows no bounds. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.
This article so far has failed tremendously by the looks of the comments
“SCUBA gear? What are they, UDT with a badge? Do cops really need Navy SEAL equipment?”
Dumbest shit I think I’ve read today. Ever heard of diving for evidence? Thats a Normal reg from scubapro with a regular BCD.. Ignorant shithead is ignorant.
You idiots have ruined a perfectly good op-ed piece by throwing out a bunch of what ifs and basically sizing up your junk against the next idiot with a stupid comment. What if there was no law enforcement…what if you let law enforcement run rampant….screw you, I have a degree….screw you, I have experience. If you feel strongly about something, then how likely are you to say to a person with an opposing viewpoint, “I see what you’re saying and I’ve changed my mind.” It doesn’t happen. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, whether yours is covered in BDUs, uniform pants, or those stupid skinny jeans that hipsters seem to love to squeeze their junk into, it does not matter. Just speak your piece and crawl back into your mom’s basement with some Cheetos and the most recent version of Debbie Does Dallas and move the hell on.
Okay, from my own personal experiences most cops I’ve encountered are bigger criminals than the bultimate of the people they arrest. Sure, I’ve encountered a few good upstanding police officers that deserve to wear the badge but I’ve also had $200.00 of my tax refund stolen out of my pocket by an officer before and when I called the police station to report it what do YOU think they did about it? Nothing! The answer I was given was to call back at such and such a time. Then the person I was supposed to get in touch with had just stepped out. Run around after run around. How can anybody expect the public to respect the law when the majority of law enforcement doesn’t respect your rights or the law they’re supposed to uphold? How can we respect the law when the police officer who was hired to uphold the law isn’t subjected to the same penalties John Q down the street is subjected to when they break it? I saw a video of a cop in New Hampshire smashing a handcuffed civilians head off a concrete wall. The result of this unwarranted assault was brain damage. This officer may no longer have his job but do you think he’should doing time? Yeah right! That’sounds why I personally think the whole system is a joke.
Sell out!!!
Excellent article. This needed to be said.
This article…. Pander much? Cops should be tacticool because of the 2nd amendment? WTF over? The police are not even mandated to protect the public at large. They are on the other hand effective revenue generators and increasingly serving warrants as if heading into combat for minor domestic charges. Not having a problem with them flexing an increasing arsenal of military grade equipment is either a sign of intellectual dishonesty or confusion with reality. I get it. You work with cops. The fact that Breach Bang Clear has cops rolling around the confines of ownership is in itself fucking ominous.
I know. This kind of false-front operation is what brought about domestic terrorism in the 80,s and 90,s. The Feds would create a militia, just to find the people that were like-minded. Once lured in, many, many times, people that had no intention of every harming anyone were then provoked to commit crimes by the very same Feds that ran the militia. Then they would send send them out on a mission, whoever was dim-witted enough, then bust them and announce it to the press as a victory. So, yes, that is exactly what this site is. And I have been doing my civic duty to expose this agenda, because entrapment is unconstitutional. Sometimes, officers, the means to an end do not justify shredding our Constitution. And the Feds made some tremendous fuck-ups, too, like training Timothy McVeigh, and then not stopping the conspiracy that they, as in our Federal Government, created. This had an invisible to the public effect, of Congress putting an end to that dangerous of a game, just to create some boogieman so we will keep funding their mission, and keep them rolling in taxpayers money. That is why I write and publish a dated document explaining the motives behind my comments before I post a single word. If our Constitution had any meaning anymore, I would not have to take such counter-measures just to gain some information. Fast-And-Furious is just one more botched attempt at this sort of “protecting us” scenario, that was so stupidly conceived, it blows my mind. But when we make foreign policy decisions as retarded as air-dropping weapons into the middle of a civil war, I have given up hope completely. There is absolutely no precedent in the history of mankind that this kind of policy could EVER have a positive result. My representative democracy, yous as well, has made mistakes that do not represent ANY of my values, or wishes. Please, get your shit together U.S.A. I can’t even put in words what I feel, because how can I have been forced to hate myself, for the decisions made by my Government. I can’t even say that disapprove, for it is my country, I was born here. And no, I am not going to just “move” as some people seem to think the solution if you even complain about these real, factual, fucked-up things on youtube.
The gun laws in this country are fucked, and it’s a massive problem. I’m not a cop hater, but the fact of the matter is that they’ll kill innocent people because they can’t take a chance on someone pulling a gun on them. Other countries? Not the case. The pecking order for drawing a gun is lower on the list. So yeah, let’s escalate this problem with more guns. Yaaaaaaaay……
It is interesting to me as a LEO to read about the fear some say they have over current gear and tactics that police use now over what we did in in the past. In the past if you said anything to a cop you’d get smacked. In the past if you broke into an building or committed some other property crime you could legally be shot. Our tactics and gear have changed. That is true, but what people fail to see is that we have changed to mirror society.
Prior to becoming a Marine I was around guns my whole life, and yet I never knew anyone that had an M16 or Ak47. I can now say that is not true. Yet you would ask me to try and arrest someone dressed in a uniform with nothing else. There is a reason that fewer cops are killed now. It is because of better gear and better training.
Very serious topic addressed poorly in a half-baked article. I was hoping for much more.
Excellent article, you may not be a cop, but you sound like you get it. Thank you for that. I have been in law enforcement for the last 23 years, seen a lot of changes in my time…..from carrying a revolver to sub machinegun. I am used to hearing the hatred for the police (from the left), but the fact that I am starting to hear it from the right….to include military or former military really bothers me. I have argued the same things with my pro 2A friends who are non LEO or MIL and seriously wonder why someone would deny the use of surplus mil equipment like an MRAP…..its an armored vehicle for Christ’s sake. I am all for exercising my 2A rights and all for you doing the same…..I grew up with the philosophy an armed society is a polite society. I still believe this.
I don’t see much difference to today’s attitude than that of the 60s and 70s (yeah, I’m fucking old). I don’t think most people hate the police, but they do hate being told what to do (I have always thought that was a distinctly American trait and admire it). Also, there are many people, myself included, that don’t really trust the government and the Police are the visible, local arm of that government.
Many of the same people that whine, bitch, and moan about the police wouldn’t even consider crawling on their belly under a house looking for a murderer, walking alone into a bar fight, climbing into a burning semi to pull out a driver, etc. Police aren’t paid very well considering what they do and the shit they put up with. They have a job to do and by far most try to do it to the best of their ability. I am a Veteran and former LE and, for me at least, being a Police Officer was harder. The restraints and public scrutiny are sometimes hard to bare and it takes a unique individual to handle it.
The mistrust of the police comes not from how they dress like soldiers but from the ever increasing examples of how the police aggressively disregard basic civil liberties. The treatment of reporters in Fergusen is one example. The criminalization of parenting in the news this past summer is another. The idea that a person can be walking down the street and stopped by a police
officer for no particular reason at all is repugnant, but that is precisely what is occurring nowadays. It is the behavior of the police that is at issue, not their costumes. The article urges people to get be more proactive, I agree with that. express your dissatisfaction through voting or help support those who have been wrongfully arrested and charged with a crime. Inform yourself of your rights and don’t allow them to be tread upon
I was a cop from 1980-1991, and have been practicing law since then. I deal with cops on a regular basis and I still have a lot of cop friends, almost all of whom are now “old-timers”, retired or nearing retirement. Hardly any of them have much good to say about “the new breed”. The most common disparaging trait I hear is “arrogance”. That has been my experience with them as well. A lot of the current crop simply don’t know how to talk to people, and are too eager to resort to force, including deadly force, if their authority is challenged in any way. Too many mall ninjas have badges and can’t wait to use their guns, which I think is the main reason dog shootings have become epidemic. I worked narcotics & SWAT for a major metropolitan agency and have done hundreds of high risk raids. Know how many dogs we shot? None. There is NO good reason to shoot an arthritic 13 year old golden retriever (which happened in my hometown recently). There are 2 other reasons there are so many sub-par officers on the streets, and both have to do with the law. First, the current state of labor law, particularly where government employees are concerned, and union influence have made it extremely hard for a lot of agencies to get rid of the bad ones. The other reason is civil liability. If a cop does something wrong his agency and its governing body, whether it’s local, county, state or federal can be liable as well. Accordingly, rather then hemorrhage government funds in the form of jury verdicts or settlements, the agency will support officers that do shit that would have gotten them fired and prosecuted in my day. In other words, they’re getting away with it, and the general public sees it. When there are two sets of rules, “us vs. them”, people resent it, and rightly so. I am still pro law enforcement, and have great respect for the good guys out there putting it on the line, but a lot of the others make it very difficult sometimes.
Perfect Shanks. I am exactly the person who supported the police in the 20TH Century (9 years on the Police Civil Service Board) but has serious doubts now. When the police finish losing the support of people like me, it will be a very bad day for them.
difference is.. you pay for the things you own with your own money.. cops get unnecessary toys and WE taxpayers foot the bill…
Not a cop. Not anti cop nor am I against doing everything in your means to smash out bad. Just a veteran. Paratrooper light infantry 2 deployments. Just a little background. I think your article works for big cities with high crime rates. LA, Detroit, Miami, so on so on. For your everyday cop working in rural areas and in your middle class suburbs it doesn’t work. I think the problem is you have cops really acting like they could really die at any moment. Drawing guns. Acting aggressive instead of defensive. I find it hard to believe there’s not an R.O.E. or E.O.F. Do cops no have battle drills or react to contact training? I mean a lot of the stories you see on the news or someone post is veteran cops acting like cherry privates. Not having composure or the training to handle a situation pulling non lethals or worse lethals and it not being warranted. I would compare it to a cherry gunner going cyclic on his 50 cal in a general direction from hearing his first ineffective pop shots. His TC would calm him down. Get his 3 D’s… talk to trucks and get him hitting on target. My last deployment was in 2010 and if you shot an unarmed man with in 25 meters 6 times you’d better have a good reason and it better not be he was 6 ‘ 3. I think it’s a little scary we had harsher escalation of force in Afghanistan then officer rick in small town USA. We are Americans and do have rights right? Either way you know your doing something wrong when it’s just not stoners conspiracy theorists and all around shit bags that just dislike you. Now you have your average law abiding citizens disliking you. Well fearing you.
Public servants are exactly that, never forget the very people you claim have no business questioning how you do your job are the very reason you do it. Public servants serve the public, not the other way around. We will question you, we will watch you and if that’s a problem, then don’t choose to serve the public.
You forget one thing. No one answered an add in the Ukraine asking for snipers to kill civilians. No one answered an add asking if you wanted to spy on your neighbors at the NSA. No one stepped forward and said I’m best qualified to burn down David Koresh’s evil little ranch. No… all of these people reacted to the orders and situation at hand. And all of them were wrong.
The more bad ass your equipment… the larger it amplifies your mistakes. These “people” that you say are just like you and I are barely trained as it is on the handgun they carry. Now we want to give them more complicated and more deadly and MORE EXPENSIVE equipment to operate? No.
I’m all for each state have SRT/SWAT teams. As many as prudence allows. But your average Sheriff’s department is going to find more trouble than good with most of the equipment in question. Same for the local PDs.
Fighting MS 13 with tanks and rifles on the streets of the USA is a bad idea. We will not win that war. You’ve been over the wire… you want insurgent tactics being played out vs our local law enforcement in USA communities??? You want the 24 hour news cycle to sink it’s teeth into that????
NO. You do not. You want our boys and girls to fall back. Call in the real bad asses… or find another quieter solution.
But you don’t give full auto rifle’s to ever deputy that want’s one, a patrol rifle… yes. You don’t give them MRAP troop carriers.
If the government is in such a giving mood… give our guys in blue more ammo and paid range time to practice with the weapons they carry everyday.
How many 9mm,40s&w,45acp rounds would the price of one MRAP buy?
Or… how about we sell a few to the Saudi’s and Emirates and pass out a few pay raises to local law enforcement.
Or maybe we take the money and put it towards constitutional law classes so the idiots in the DEA and FBI will stop using parallel construction and stop requiring local LEOs to swear and attest that they will not protect local citizens from the over reaches of Federal law enforcement???
Until we can get a better grip on what is and what isn’t constitutional in the country… I’d prefer not every cop have a full auto weapon if they want one. Or worse, if they don’t.
We don’t need tanks for local LEOs. Sorry.
Show me one LE agency in the US with a tank. I’ll wait. An MRAP is an armored vehicle. Nothing more. It has no main gun. It is no more dangerous than an ambulance or a bread truck. Unless cops are using them to brave hails of gunfire to run over random citizens, they are a defensive weapon.
I totally agree with you. It’ s not a tank. But that’s not what the public sees. And… that’s not what the media prints. The public sees “TANK”.
And there was a PD or SD that has already been admonished for weaponizing the mrap. With a .50 no less.
Really? The F.B.I. The B.A.T.F. do I need to continue? Those are LE agencies and they have tanks.
There are many places in this country where we can not own the articles you state. Now I could move to Arizina, but I chose to fight for my freedoms where I live, where my folks, and their folks have lived.
I will not support the police owning articles We the People can not own. Once the police have no special rights above the average people (weather that’s class 3, CCW, body armor or anything thing else ) then we can talk about my support of police owning these things. Not before.
I do not begrudge the local police these weapons as long as the are prepared to use them against the UN Police Force when they come to collect our guns and push UN Agenda 21 “The New World Order”. You do remember that little item that was mentioned by GHW Bush back in 1991 don’t you?
The logic behind your argument is sound. When the ATF fired at American civilians at Waco, they stepped over the line. This may have been interpreted as an illegal use of military force against civilians. There were some very bad consequences as a result, that we are rarely made aware of. A young soldier who joined a peacetime army to learn how to operate heavy equipment was thrown into an unexpected battle. In 1991, G.H,W. Bush sent an Army to do the bidding of his Saudi Arabian masters. A huge propaganda campaign was conducted to convince Saddam Hussein we were going to carry out a Normandy beach style attack on his coastline, which he fell for, and he sent hundreds of thousands of men to the beaches and ordered them to dig in. He gave his Officers orders to shoot deserters. We had an almost unbelievable kill ratio in an 8 week battle. On the beach, a soldier named Timothy McVeigh was ordered to drive his bulldozer over the trenches, and bury alive soldiers who could not retreat under fear of death from their own Officers. This bothered McVeigh very much. He had joined during a point in history where we had been at peace with the world since 1975. Yes, I left out Reagans Wars. Panama and Grenada together were non-threats. But made great press, and gave our country back the pride we lost in Vietnam. But they never even dug up the dead soldiers McVeigh was ordered to kill, and estimated Iraqi casualties were over 200,000. We suffered the loss of only 131 U.S. soldiers. 74 were killed by friendly fire. A kill ratio unmatched in history.Yeah, we bad. we proved it. but since Private McVeigh had no expectations of killing anybody, he was very emotionally disturbed afterwards, and when he questioned the morality of his actions, his Superior Officer told him that any unintentional casualties in war were simply “collateral damage”. A few years go by and McVeigh is now a disillusioned ex-private. When he saw that the U,S, Federal Government use a sniper rifle to shoot from an aircraft at civilians he decided that it was his patriotic duty to do something about the unjust murder of the children that died in the ATF raid in Waco. So he chose a legitimate military target, from the perspective he held at the time, and parked a rental van full of explosives outside the ATF headquarters. We should all remember that, right? When McVeigh was caught, he showed no remorse. To any and all questions, he answered only with his name, rank, and serial number. The one, and only answer he ever provided was when he was questioned about the morality of killing the children in the ATF daycare center on site for the agents. His one and only reply was,”collateral damage”. He was put to death for his crime. What motivated him, and his own rational that drove him to do this terrorist act, are meaningless. It happened, that is the point. We are a country that fought a war to exist. We are a Warring Nation. But every war we fought was for our freedom, but we can not allow our Government to go to War against us. Because our laws specifically state that the citizens should have the capability to overthrow the incumbent Government by force if necessary, we as citizens are automatically granted the right to own any weapon that our Government brings upon us. So to shut up the Constitutional scholars who were raising hell about the shots from the helicopter at Waco, the ATF had to allow private citizens to buy anything they wanted. So another unintended, and tragic result of the ATF actions in Waco is American citizens that buy tanks, and even surplus fighter jets. It is actually legal to own anything up to 88mm. So the short term political band-aids resulted in the America of today. If the police think they have a monopoly on MRAP,s they are dangerously uninformed. Anybody with the money and a big enough parking spot can buy one at a military surplus auction. Remember, we are a capitalist society. So why would any police department escalate the already messed up balance of power? If the police, and all other domestic law enforcement agencies were limited to .38 specials, the same laws that have escalated the internal arms race would also limit every citizen to the same .38 special as the police. So which path will lead us to a safer world for our children. Put down the guns for a while.
In my view, it comes down to a need for increased training. Especially in regard to use of force. I don’t care if they have rocket launchers. I just want to be sure they know when they should be using them. Did you know that most states don’t require a specific amount of hours for use of force training? I know that sounds insane, but look it up if you don’t believe me. From what I’ve read, scenario based use of force training doesn’t happen as often as it should. Why? Because there’s no money to pay for it. That’s why. If we don’t keep them trained up, how can we expect them to perform perfectly.
I myself personally am fine with police using what ever equipment they can that allows them to come home safe, however what I believe is that any and all equipment should be allowed to be freely purchased by the law abiding citizen as well, none of this $200 stamp and wait months and months to get approved before you can purchase something after. As a civilian we should be at least allowed the same protections as our Police, and should not be delayed, charged extra, or beg for permission when we are trying to purchase that same gear considered essential for our Police. And before anyone says we as general public don’t see the same action as Police, while you are correct that we don’t see it as often, if at all, but think about the fact it is usually a law abiding citizen who is the one dealing with these criminals first, they are the ones defending their life from the crazies initially, and they are the ones who usually call the police to report the wrongdoing, granted the Police willingly travel into danger, and I am extremely grateful for that, however just because they need it more often does not equate to us not needing it, ask anyone who has been defenseless at the time of an attack and most of them will tell you they wish they were better prepared, at least in the time they needed it most. All I ask is Law Abiding Citizens be allowed to be armed to the same extent as Law Enforcement, that does not mean disarm Law Enforcement, because that would mean less protection for our boys/girls in blue, what it does mean is allow us citizens the same level of protection instead of limiting us to what others believe as reasonable, especially when it is considered reasonable for others to be allowed it.
Can’t speak for your state laws, Chad, but not one thing in my trunk required a tax stamp, nor would it if you tried to buy it. Why? Because the AR in my trunk is my personal rifle. The armor back there? Mine. The NOD’s? Mine. Not one tax payer dime went for their purchase. Same with the med kit.
Guess what, if I ran into you with any of the above, I’d more than likely start a conversation about how you liked them. Unless you were pointing the rifle at me.
I am lucky enough to live in a state that has not banned AR’s and has no capacity on magazines, not everyone has those items still available to them though which is a shame. My original post was actually geared more toward SBR, SBS, Select fire, and Sound Suppressor’s, along with any other gear that would require more than going into a store, selecting what you want, paying for it, and leaving. I will admit many states don’t even allow AR’s and have a capacity limit on magazines which is even more unacceptable when their police can carry exactly what they are told is not needed for defense. Todd I completely agree with you that not all officers are armed with items that are highly restricted/regulated, but you must admit there is many more officers who do have restricted/regulated items now than there was a decade ago, and as I stated that is great, I want them to be as well protected as they can possibly be, however I would like every law abiding citizen to have that same protection if they so choose, without all of the hoops and taxes associated with them. I also would not be surprised at all if you did not freak out when you were around anything restricted, the Police in my neck of the woods are usually pretty level headed and very respectful, while remaining professional, and that last word is important for what I am about to say, a “Professional” Police officer will do the job in which they are hired for, enforcing current laws to the best of their ability, in other words if someone had something they should not have the Officer will confiscate it and proper procedures would be followed leading to an arrest, with most likely time served, a fine, and a felony charge that would disqualify that person from owning any firearm, which is exactly what should happen when someone knowingly breaks a law, my problem is how do these particular regulations save lives, and does the number of lives saved by not allowing these items equate to the potential number of lives that would have been saved if people were allowed to use these banned items, then after you think about those questions for a second think of this, if these items were not effective at saving lives why would they be issued to Police Officers who, to the best of my knowledge are in the life saving business (Protect). Seems somewhat hypocritical to me, on one hand say one group needs something to allow them a better chance of survival, and then make that more effective tool either unavailable or extremely difficult and take a long time to obtain for another group. Does what I am saying make sense? Do you as a Police officer feel that your life is worth more than those you are out to protect? I highly doubt that, and in my experience with most of the fine officers I have had contact with would actually believe the opposite, and that they would selflessly put themselves in harms way to save another’s life. Todd if you are indeed one of the good guys like you seem to be keep up the good work, and thank you for doing what many of us could not.
You do realize that unless you are a currently active member of law enforcement it is a felony to own that body armor, don’t you? [Note from Breach-Bang-Clear: although laws vary, this is incorrect. Many people own body armor and several companies, including Grey Ghost Gear and US PALM, sell armor to civilians.] If you are not a policeman or some other kind of law enforcement officer, you are crazy to post an admission of what? about five different felonies? I have to assume you are 90 years old, and retired from a police force some 30 years ago not to know that you need an FFA tax stamp to own a sporting rifle [Yet another incorrect ‘fact’ in support of numerous, fatuous arguments. MD], much less carry it around in the trunk of your car, concealed, and with body armor? For your own personal safety, I urge you to research your local laws before you continue this practice. If you drive around and get pulled over and searched, the cops may very well think you intend to engage in a full-scale assault on …..Anybody. Then, they might just overreact, and shoot you while you are pulling yous wallet out to show off your deputy badge from 1965. No joke, I really don’t want anybody to get hurt, and I care about all Human beings equally. [Another ironic statement given the frequently violent and almost universally insulting statements made about and toward LEOs throughout this thread. Once again – be careful about feeding the trolls, or people who post such peculiar and/or provocative statements as to be perceived as trolls. Mad Duo]
Please help me understand why officers who I have had dealings with in the last 2 years have been much more arrogant and rough than all my other years of experience? I am almost 60. A Christian law-abiding citizen. Yet I see a difference in them, in our laid back state of Oklahoma. Yes, social media jumps on sensational cases that are not the usual, and there are two sides to every story. But I am now afraid of officers, when I never was before. I will hesitate to call them. I have always been proud of our police and Highway Patrol. They still do awesome things. But there IS a difference, and it makes me sad. The extra equipment doesn’t scare me so much as pointing guns in peoples’ faces before even talking to them or finding out the person is deaf or mentally handicapped or some such. My son is autistic. How will he fare if he doesn’t obey a command at the first bark? We have to get his attention, say directions multiple times to get him to process what we have said. He wouldn’t live long enough for police see he has a problem. A good thing just now is, this article may help me go to my local police and ask them about their policies concerning autistics and ask how they will recognize problems like hat.
Correct. The police have gotten more fearful over the past 60 years (that I know of). Their job is LESS dangerous than it ever was. Murders in the line of duty, not heart attacks or car accidents, down in 2013 to 31). http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2013-EOY-Fatality-Report.pdf. That’s about 1 per million citizen encounters. Cops don’t even make the top 10 most dangerous jobs.
So, why the fear, the fearful acts (puppycide, shooting proned out children, shooting handcuffed persons, flash banging baby cribs, etc)? I think the cops are being BRAINWASHED into it. Every day in the Academy or Skills Training they watch an hour of “clips” put together of those few traffic stops that result in police deaths. Over and over again, the same unrealistic situation is reinforced. The newbys are convinced that EVERY (not 1 in a million) traffic stop will result in their death. And the lesson is further reinforced by weekly in-service training of active officers using the same scare films. The entire law enforcement industry has those film clips creating an unrealistic view of the 29.9 million, or more, citizen encounters that will result in no physical harm to anyone. It is dangerous out here but less dangerous than it is for roofers or construction workers whose jobs kill more of them.
The artificially induced fear leads to excessive police violence both actual and threatened. Serving missed appearance traffic court warrants by SWAT team in bring violence into a situation where there is none (or a statistically insignificant possibility). But every police department does it. “Good training, you know.” I doubt that destroying homes and terrifying occupants is a source of good community relations. Since SWAT raids could be for anything, everyone on the civvy side has to think “That botched wrong address raid that burned the baby could happen to ME.” And another citizen comes to hate the police. Soon all of us hate you. Do you really wonder why? Maybe you do. If so, I submit you are unsuitable for the power we give you. And I’m not alone.
More on the results of that artificially induced fear. Although in over 60 years on the street I’ve never been touched by a police officer on duty and my NICS check clears in 1 second, I do get speeding tickets now and then. I’ve been a military officer, firefighter, and have attended many shooting courses with cops. I treat cops like the ordinary citizens they are. I’m polite but no push over. A couple of weeks ago I was stopped. I knew I was going to get a ticket because that tiny town depends on traffic enforcement for a major portion of it’s budget. The officer was so scared that I could hear it in his voice and see it in his stance (even through the mirror). He stood at the rear fender and made me talk to him through the rear view mirror. He was fully visible but going out of his way to create a difficult situation (how can you have a pleasant conversation under these circumstances). It was actually not only a bad social position but a bad tactical position because he couldn’t see my hands or lap and, because of the head rest, couldn’t see my movements (had I made any) until I was turned around, out the window, and pointing at him. He was so scared that I began to fear what he might misconstrue and overreact to. I, the civilian, wound up trying to manage his fear and insure that he didn’t flip out on me. He almost drew his weapon (I could see in the mirror) as he came up to the window to retrieve the DL, registration, and insurance card. Reaching across to open the glove box with the fearful, armed man at my side was a scary experience (details omitted). I got them out and gave them to him. He walked backwards to his squad car and wrote the ticket. He managed to give it to me. And I managed to drive away with my Glock in its holster on my hip.
So what does the public see? In person, on TV, on You-tube, on FB, everywhere. Scared men with dangerous toys. Who bring with them violence and fear into the most ordinary situations. Do you wonder why we have come to fear the man who used to be Officer Friendly and to hate the thugs who can’t even get the right address before they destroy someone’s house (maybe mine), terrify their wives, and occasionally kill or injure their children.
You, the police, are creating a gap between you and the population, especially the good citizens, that you will regret more than we. Think about it. Do you really want Americans to see you as a dangerous alien force imposed on us?
Did it never ococcur to you that better training might have something to do with reduced LODD’s? Nope, because you are blinded by your agenda. And I will not face, and make my family face, my death because YOU thought it silly to train for a worst case scenario that YOU will never face.
It’s still less likely than a lightening strike. And you (for your family) choose the job. And you get hazard pay either directly or through a generous pension.
Wow it blows my mind people actually use that argument. Soldiers volunteer, why give them armor to protect themselves? Firefighters chose their profession, why give them that fancy expensive equipment? Nurses chose nursing…the millions spent on gloves? Just tell them to take the risk and wash their hands. I chose to take a certain amount of risk to do good in this world. But I will NOT take unnecassary risk. I will not lay down and die because the IMAGE of something makes you feel uncomfortable.
You should look up the number of LEO’s injured by suspects actions every year because that number is in the thousands. We don’t die because of better training, Kevlar, and medical technology just like soldiers are more likely to live because of medical technology and expertise.
94 year-old man in Minneapolis as well. Also lots of people hurt whose stories don’t make the front page.
One event where a flash bang is thrown into a crib where officers didn’t know there was a baby there and all of a sudden all cops throw flash bangs at babies. You are wrong because we don’t normally deal with the “good citizens”. The good citizens buy into irresponsible media reporting and then get scared because they have false knowledge that they or you promote on the internet.
Yes, I know that cops don’t normally deal with “good citizens”. But, it’s only when you do that the Media gives the public a look at what you do to other citizens. Such as the 94 year-old man in Minneapolis. The 12 year-old boy south of Stockton, and on and on. Also there are lots of people hurt whose stories don’t make the front page.
Using that logic…
“One time, a guy stabs his girlfriend, and suddenly, he’s a murderer…”
My point is, this was one event out of thousands yet all the anti cop supporters pull it out of their portfolio whenever they need to justify their agenda.
With your logic because one boyfriend stabs his girlfriend every boyfriend is a murderer.
We put murderers to death so they can not repeat the crime. And we like to stop them the first murder that happens, right? So, all the police involved should be hung, because one mistake is all it takes to swing from a tree around me.
ALCON: Why do you keep feeding this troll? (Mad Duo)
Bro you can’t drink the bong water…it’s bad for your brain.
WTF? Are you trolling? No, by that logic “One time, a guy stabs his girlfriend anand suddenly, ALL guys are murderers.” You can’t really be that dense as to have missed that point, right? You must be trolling…
I think you missed mine. The fact that something happens once, or twice, or seldom, or whatever doesn’t change the fact that it happens. Nobody here is saying all cops are bad. That was a hyperbolic argument presented by another poster to make a point.
But, the fact is that bad cops exist, and we have every right to be skeptical and “fearful” as citizens, because we don’t know who the bad cops are. Even if there are only a fraction of a percentage, we still have a right to be vigilant when dealing with them until we know who or what we are actually dealing with. That’s all anyone is saying.
One should also be rational and responsible when dealing with the police. Your phrase about being “vigilant when dealing with them” smacks of sticking a camera in an officer’s face and being aggressively antagonistic toward him/her. Or just being combative/uncooperative. You have every right to be skeptical. But you should be a responsible citizen as well.
Also, for the record, I read your comment at face value. And, literally read, it was an obvious mischarecterization of what he said. As you said- hyperbolic.
There’s a significant difference in being vigilant and wary and in being aggressive and antagonistic. Never once have I advocated being aggressive towards police here.
Then you must have meant vigilant in your research and critique of the police. Yes I encourage the public to be so. Then maybe they will have a more realtic basis with which to understand law enforcement actions.
And no, not many anywhere are claiming ALL LEO’s are bad but the perceived number of “bad cops” is absurdely disproportionate. And the level of concern is, frankly, ridiculous.
Of course you have the right to be fearful.. You have the right to be fearful that someone planted landmines in your front yard while you were at work.. But it would be a little silly, don’t you think?
Would it be silly? Maybe…but not if there were numerous instances of landmines blowing up in people’s front yards.
C’mon man. 100’s of thousands of LEO’s with some unscientific but ultra-conservative quick math let’s say 50 million calls for service per year. How many are flash bang the crib, MRAP through the house containing to find one joint, bad police shootings, excessive force, ect? Compare that to the 10’s of millions of calls we answer. Now, how many of THOSE “bad” instances are good shoots that look bad to the untrained eye, crazy circumstnaces and honest mistakes, ect.? Humans have trouble grasping these large numbers until you reduce it down. It’s like a room full of 1000 people and 3 guys in the corner are bad. And you’re telling me its not silly to be afraid of everyone in the room?
No, that’s not what I’m telling you at all.
I understand large numbers. I understand odds. I understand probability and statistics.
Nobody is disputing the odds or actual numbers of bad cops.
Actually the exact reason we all feel the need to engage in these discussions these days is because an inordinate amount of the public seems to have a gross misperception of the actual number of bad cops.
People hear about this one time when, and they watch dozens of youtube videos and they read dozens of articles and say, “wow, cops these days” or “it seems like more and more” or “seems like the bad outnumber the good” ect. How are those numbers of videos, articles, ect even remotely representative of reality? They aren’t.
Their representation of reality is irrelevant. Why? Because those things on youtube or in the news or whatever – they actually happened.
It’s a perception vs reality thing.
Spot on…I’ve been saying for a long time that the media will be the downfall of this country. Ferguson is a really good example on a small scale.
Burn the books too! what have you done that you feel the need to hide sooooo bad? Is it possible that a camera may see every moment of your professional behavior? Everybody should live a transparent life. There will be a camera watching you. Forever. And it will be harder than ever for a man to separate his personal identity from the job he does. Because with facial recognition technology, your presence can be accounted for even if you were at a peace protest in 1970. No longer does the government see a crowd rioting and have no means of identifying a needle in a haystack. You better believe every photo of a crowd in the history of man is being mined for meta-data on exactly who has been where and when, and with who. Facial recognition does not require a new photo. So as we sit, every act you have done in your life will be known by your friendly folks at the N.S.A. It really isn’t that hard to figure out the source of insecurity that our Nations Law Enforcement community feels. the biggest fear in Law Enforcement is accountability. With video, now everyone will put you under the microscope.One day you are just doing your job, knowing that at any time your entire life and your behavior will be international news. And just because you chose to serve the public,.protect them, pow. Your career, your whole life could be destroyed. I feel for you, really, I do. Try to remember that normal citizens face all the same random violence that you do. Only we are given none of the weapons, radios, and a license to kill any perceived threat. In the sad legal climate we have created, the only right choice is to join the police department. That is what any logical person would conclude to be the best way to avoid a lifetime of being on the wrong end of a nightstick.
I’m telling you that if I put you in a room with 1,000 people and told you that 3 were murderers, but you didn’t know which three, you would be watching everyone you encountered.
if they were civilians dressed in street clothes yes but a room with uniformed officers no I wouldn’t be scared and watching everyone.
I don’t believe that for a second. If I put you in a room with 1,000 police officers that you didn’t know and told you that 3 were murderers, you cannot sit there and tell me you wouldn’t worry about it, and be on the lookout for the 3.
No I wouldn’t worry because if a cop is a murderer he isn’t going to murder in front of a bunch of other LEO’s and the other 997 LEO’s would have my back just like I have their’s.
Well, we disagree then. I don’t care who has my back, I’m still going to be on the lookout and skeptically eyeing everyone I talk to.
80% of all police contact results in a monetary fine, with no attached mandatory jailtime for these same infractions.The level of personal regret after any conviction then becomes a sliding scale, where the same offense can have a disproportionate economic sting. American citizens are awarded equal protection under the law. The undeniable result is local governments using petty infractions that are nothing but a selective tax.Without any jail time attached, we have a split society, one where the wealthy enjoy all of the freedoms, while the poor are not even able to enjoy their right of commerce, for lack of personal transportation. So with your speed math, how many people have to pay these fines each year that prevent no crime whatsoever. 50 million contacts? 300 million Americans, only 50% of which fall within your selective tax base? This culture of greed is an epidemic that has diseased every town in America. Check your county budget. They actually budget in an anticipated amount of fines that will be collected, before anybody even commits an infraction. What if everybody decided to obey every written law for a year? What new violation would they have to manifest to replace this anticipated revenue? It’s not like there is a disconnect between the county cash flow and a county sheriff getting a paycheck. By your own numbers, I would imagine that the rule of thumb is to anticipate 1.5 million in citations per 100,000 citizens. Whatever the market will bear, but this is not a free market economy. We do not choose the amount of fines that we may pay. With the culture of hate kept brewing, we can always tell ourselves that anybody cited must have deserved it. Human nature is too just be glad it’s not you getting busted. Those numbers are way too high. And it is impossible that our country somehow has more criminals per capita than any other country in the world. In Caracas, there are 52 gun related murders a night on average. More citizens die in a year than Baghdad, a city twice the size that is in the middle of world war three. So why does America have more prisoners than any other Nation in the World? And not just as a percentage of the population, either. China has 1.3 billion citizens. We have a little over 300 million. America has one fifth of the population of China, and we have more prisoners than over a billion Chinese. Either China has no crime, or the majority of its citizens have no money to pay a fine, so no laws were written to take what wasn’t there. You can’t squeeze water from a stone. If Chinese citizens have that much less crime than us, and domestic police policy is not directly related to generating a revenue stream, than please explain what wool has not been pulled over Americans eyes? How is our incarceration rate justified?
He’s definitely a Cop Blocker troll.
It’s not the use of the flash bang that’s in question. It’s the overuse of SWAT teams that’s the problem. We had a no knock raid go badly where I live and now we don’t do them the same way any more, although the Feds still do:
http://ulweb.sx.atl.publicus.com/article/20140919/NEWS03/140918916/1028
As a result of the first tragedy, we lost a Chief who was about to retire and an innocent woman was killed along with the perpetrator. Just about everyone else involved was seriously injured. What a shame, the guy could have been grabbed outside rather than by attacking him in a situation where he could barricade himself…
Why do we need to serve warrants on low level marijuana growers with a SWAT team? How is it that so many of these operations go awry and end up with dead innocents? How is it that a SWAT team goes into the wrong house? This type of aggression elicits a violent response. It’s human nature to react to someone battering in your door with a defensive response and juries are beginning to balk at the idea that LE can do no wrong…
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/18/texas-man-cleared-of-murder-after-shooting-swat-team-member-during-no-knock-warrant/
Why are cops throwing grenades into rooms with no idea who is inhabiting them? That is blatant disregard for the safety of the public. They thought there might be a danger to them, so they burned a babies face off. Ok, that is horrible but it gets worse. What penalty did these officers face for burning a babies face off, and what recourse did the family have after their babies face was burned off? My understanding is that there was no punishment for the officers, nor compensation for the victims. And this babies life was changed forever.
Now think about that next time you wonder why people resent the police.
I place the blame on the parents who put that child in that situation. So I guess when you read about someone spitting in a big mac you stop eating fast food? I mean if one employee is spitting in a Big Mac they all must do it right?
Another arrogant fireman who wanted the authority but couldn’t make it so he has to think hes better than the police to hel his hurt ego…hanging out with LEOs. ..thats like saying youre not racist cause you have a black or hispanic friend…quit breaking the law and you wont have to see the police..
There are reasons for all of our actions. It is highly likely that you did not understand why guns are “pointed at people before they are talked to” as you put it, in whatever instance(s) you are referring to. Probably due to information, experience and training that you lack.
I have pointed my weapon at the father of a homeowner who set off the house’s alarm. Because I’m going to maximize the chances of going home if it was the burglar with a gun I heard rummaging around inside instead of the resident’s father. Of course finger never left the frame. Of course I holstered my weapon the instant I was able to confidently determine he was not a threat. I then professionally explained the situation and he, though shaken up, said he understood. I’m sorry that he, and you, might be scared in that kind of situation, but fear is relative. I’m not going lessen my odds of surviving a lethal force encounter because your sense of fear was triggered when, frankly, you were in very little danger. As for your son with the disability, we deal with the disabled and those with language barriers ALL THE TIME. A big part of the problem is this ognorance born notion that we are just a bunch of Barney Fife’s, scared of our own shadow, pointing guns at anything that moves and shooting anything that doesn’t follow barked orders. This perception is utterly ridiculous, yet seemingly commonplace amongst the public, who base their opinions of law enforcement almost entirely on a combination of ignorance of the profession, TV/Movie fantasy, and irrational fears.
Nate, Maybe we need to do more in the area of public relations. You are the face of law enforcement whenever and wherever you interact with the community. Your sensitivity to people’s concerns needs to be a priority if you want them to listen to you…
Its because if idiots like the ones on here that are attacking officers..we used to more ir less know the good guys from tbe bad guys and if we didn’t we would be polite and wait an extra minute or so to find out and thats when we started getting killed..we’re tired if that..We’ve been killed more and more by senior citizens. ..you tube shootings by old people. .and finally we no longer know who we can trust…we’re being attacked from all sides either physically or verbally…i never have said this until now and these idiots on here just gave me the final push i needed..im glad im getting closer to retirement. .i no longer receive joy from helping my fellow man…i now hope there is a breakdown and the cops all quit..let everyone fend for themselves for a week or two and see what happens. .im just one of several officers i know that is sick and tired ofcthe crap we get from ignorant civilians and 90 day wonders like this idiot soldier who hates the police yet ironically is supposedly going for a Masters in Criminal Justice. ..what a douchebag. ..yall just run around with your CCW and go save the world. .
You are the face of law enforcement whenever and wherever you interact with the community. Your sensitivity to people’s concerns needs to be a priority if you want them to respect you. It sounds like you’re burned out and need to reassess your priorities. We can learn from criticism, if we set our egos aside and take the time to listen. Yours is a difficult job but it requires a level of professionalism that includes a political perspective as well as physical and mental training…
Have not seen any tanks.
Have not seen any tanks.
I don’t have a problem with police having the equipment they do I also own Armor NODs ARs and the like, the problem is how they are used. There seem to be far too many police departments nationwide who are using this equipment to gain compliance through fear and intimidation. Another problem is that it seems atleast that most LEOs and agencies are beyond reproach for nearly anything they do wrong. My final gripe is the trend that it seems more and more that LEOs see them selves as above the average person the constant usage of the term civilian LEOs are civis to even if they don’t think they are.
O by the way, I bet people love how you trivialize their opinions because it does not fit your narrative…great writing bro.
I’m all for our police officers having every tool needed at their disposal, but flooding departments with equipment while deep-sixing training dollars is a recipe for disaster. If departments are going to field MRAPs, M79s, or whatever, leadership has to step up and provide training on how to use all of it (including ROE and tactics) or there will be unpleasant follow-on effects…
I’m all for our police officers having every tool needed at their disposal, but flooding departments with equipment while deep-sixing training dollars is a recipe for disaster. If departments are going to field MRAPs, M79s, or whatever, leadership has to step up and provide training on how to use all of it (including ROE and tactics) or there will be unpleasant follow-on effects…
Or maybe we as a nation need to stop spending countless dollars on crap that is not needed. We are trillions of dollars in debt and we are crowding out the private sector of making actual innovations…maybe let us stop spending money.
Or maybe we as a nation need to stop spending countless dollars on crap that is not needed. We are trillions of dollars in debt and we are crowding out the private sector of making actual innovations…maybe let us stop spending money.
First, how do you equate or rationalize deterring LEO from having AR-15’s, MRAPS, and the like to not believing in the 2nd Am? As for the argument based on citizens rights to certain weapons I absolutely disagree, not only is there a mountain of bureaucracy it costs too much for the average citizen to obtain. So, we are going to turn this into a great debate of logical fallacies and try to remain unbiased? Excuse me while I say BS to your unbiased opinion, you work around cops on a regular basis quite often so far as we can see. You must think us dumb trying to tell us that this does not skewer your opinion at all. What a lot of your side of this argument tend to do is make this into a cop hate scenario…IT IS NOT! It is merely an algebraic equation, without balance you cannot solve it. The major issue is the moral argument that the gov’t has a monopoly on arbitration, force, and monetary transfers of said. Many civilizations thrived without police for years…it is a fairly new phenomenon to have LEO. This limits the public’s own ability to decipher individual moral codes. Holding all arbitration also allows for the system to become far more corrupt, it has no check or balance other that public opinion which as we have seen is less public than we actually think. With holding constant supply of information keeps most in the dark and only once a calamity has happened then it reaches the masses. Next is monopoly of force. In no way shape or form is this ok, all citizens public or private should be held accountable under the law pedantically. Assigning any special arbitrary powers to any one group throws off this social equilibrium. Lastly, they just are not cost effective, they cost more for society than they make. Let us say we have a fake town to simplify,10 citizens 2 cops taxes from citizens is 100 dollars each cop makes 10 dollars of that money. Cop a is a good cop, cop b is a douche, cop b beats the fuck out of the only black citizen and gets sued for 40 dollars, the PD settles for 30 dollars…this 20 dollars just turned into 50 which is half of the taxes while we only received the productive goods of one cop. If you think that the reference I just gave is somehow simple and truncated it is…but for the purpose of this debate keeping it simple without writing a full economically heavy op ed myself it will do. This is why people dislike cops…not because it is cool to hate cops but they are just not worth it most of the times….all of this completely exempts the fact that cops are unionized, typically racist, and poorly trained.
First, how do you equate or rationalize deterring LEO from having AR-15’s, MRAPS, and the like to not believing in the 2nd Am? As for the argument based on citizens rights to certain weapons I absolutely disagree, not only is there a mountain of bureaucracy it costs too much for the average citizen to obtain. So, we are going to turn this into a great debate of logical fallacies and try to remain unbiased? Excuse me while I say BS to your unbiased opinion, you work around cops on a regular basis quite often so far as we can see. You must think us dumb trying to tell us that this does not skewer your opinion at all. What a lot of your side of this argument tend to do is make this into a cop hate scenario…IT IS NOT! It is merely an algebraic equation, without balance you cannot solve it. The major issue is the moral argument that the gov’t has a monopoly on arbitration, force, and monetary transfers of said. Many civilizations thrived without police for years…it is a fairly new phenomenon to have LEO. This limits the public’s own ability to decipher individual moral codes. Holding all arbitration also allows for the system to become far more corrupt, it has no check or balance other that public opinion which as we have seen is less public than we actually think. With holding constant supply of information keeps most in the dark and only once a calamity has happened then it reaches the masses. Next is monopoly of force. In no way shape or form is this ok, all citizens public or private should be held accountable under the law pedantically. Assigning any special arbitrary powers to any one group throws off this social equilibrium. Lastly, they just are not cost effective, they cost more for society than they make. Let us say we have a fake town to simplify,10 citizens 2 cops taxes from citizens is 100 dollars each cop makes 10 dollars of that money. Cop a is a good cop, cop b is a douche, cop b beats the fuck out of the only black citizen and gets sued for 40 dollars, the PD settles for 30 dollars…this 20 dollars just turned into 50 which is half of the taxes while we only received the productive goods of one cop. If you think that the reference I just gave is somehow simple and truncated it is…but for the purpose of this debate keeping it simple without writing a full economically heavy op ed myself it will do. This is why people dislike cops…not because it is cool to hate cops but they are just not worth it most of the times….all of this completely exempts the fact that cops are unionized, typically racist, and poorly trained.
Joe, the reason societies thrived without police for years, is because the military did most of the stuff current LE does, in terms of hunting criminals, protecting society from them, and often, meting out the justice. With far less controls or protections for the citizenry. Is that what you are wanting?
You demonstrate your own prejudice and bias, making untrue blanket statements about law enforcement.
Fuck yes. Unfortunately, you are speaking to a group that does not understand complex socioeconomic reasons for their existence, much less understand a complete sentence. But I guess I hear what your saying and understand, so you were not completely wasting your time.
Doesn’t it all come down to public perception? If the American public perceives the police as becoming too militarized then that is reality, end of discussion. Maybe try changing this perception? One nut job shoots two state patrolman and the police respond with helicopters, armored vehicles, and an army of policemen practically declaring Marshall law for six weeks? This really didn’t help public perception. Would the police response have been the same if two construction workers were shot?
Doesn’t it all come down to public perception? If the American public perceives the police as becoming too militarized then that is reality, end of discussion. Maybe try changing this perception? One nut job shoots two state patrolman and the police respond with helicopters, armored vehicles, and an army of policemen practically declaring Marshall law for six weeks? This really didn’t help public perception. Would the police response have been the same if two construction workers were shot?
What’s your answer? Let him go on to murder other cops at will? Let him go? Send the cops into the woods in blaze orange so they can be seen? Let’s have some common sense here bud.
Common sense? Assembling a small Army to hunt down a murderer while National Media has cameras everywhere is common sense? I could care less, it wasn’t my plan or decision. My statement was about public perception and why so many Americans believe the police are too militarized. I didn’t give my personal views or perceptions. And what does blaze orange have to do with this?
Why did you say “murder other cops at will” instead of saying “murder other people at will”? Are you a policeman? Do you have an emotional stake in this article? Does a policeman’s life have more value than any other citizen in your view?
Troy he wants to kill cops not citizens. I have family that live in that area and for the most part they are thankful and the officers conducting the search have been more than gracious and accommodating.
That was kind of what I was getting at with that statement. A cop is a citizen, and working for a police department is a job. The military has their own laws and code of conduct outside of constitutional law. Policemen in the U.S. are subject to and bound to all of the same laws as the people they work for “us”. My personal opinion based on observation is too many policemen today are from the military and aren’t adjusted to the fact that they are now civilians and subject to civilian laws and conduct. I know it’s impossible to say this without pissing off a lot of people because they have so much emotion and pride wrapped up in this but if you’re going to hate me for stating the truth there’s not much I can do about it.
This is a big problem to me. To many in law enforcement the answer is yes. But to me it’s not about the value of the life (we should consider them equal). It’s about duty. A police officer’s duty in my opinion is to protect the people and property of a community, and though I don’t want them to die needlessly they should be willing to do so in the line of duty. If you are a cop and you’re running scared from a threat and that puts others at risk, you’ve failed. But also, if you’re a cop and harm others because of your fear, you’ve also failed.
Common sense would dictate that all murders be prosecuted with equal vigor. What makes a police officers life so damn important? The police never treat a civilian murderer as a National emergency. If they did, maybe the public that pays you to protect us wouldn’t feel so disenfranchised.
“Without that thin blue line of men and women “On the Job” standing guard, certain chaos would likely erupt.”
Ha! Oh god, that was hilarious. For a moment I thought you were serious.
We have conceal carry in this country. If you fired 99% of law enforcement the only thing that would happen is losers would be able to get high a little easier and the few neighborhoods that are responsible for the overwhelming majority of crime in this country would kill themselves off quicker, fixing our problems for us.
Also, telling people that see the problems with having cops to become cops? Really?
“Without that thin blue line of men and women “On the Job” standing guard, certain chaos would likely erupt.”
Ha! Oh god, that was hilarious. For a moment I thought you were serious.
We have conceal carry in this country. If you fired 99% of law enforcement the only thing that would happen is losers would be able to get high a little easier and the few neighborhoods that are responsible for the overwhelming majority of crime in this country would kill themselves off quicker, fixing our problems for us.
Also, telling people that see the problems with having cops to become cops? Really?
Let’s see how that works out for you the next time a dog is abused, a woman is beat on by her husband, a serious car accident happens because of a drunk driver, or an interstate identity theft ring steals your personal information, and then your money. Are you going to handle all those things by shooting someone with your concealed-carry gun? The fact is, the local and state police have to handle a whole dizzying array of problems and crimes that have nothing to do with anyone getting shot, or even menaced, with a gun.
Let’s see how that works out for you the next time a dog is abused, a woman is beat on by her husband, a serious car accident happens because of a drunk driver, or an interstate identity theft ring steals your personal information, and then your money. Are you going to handle all those things by shooting someone with your concealed-carry gun? The fact is, the local and state police have to handle a whole dizzying array of problems and crimes that have nothing to do with anyone getting shot, or even menaced, with a gun.
Firemen and can easily handle traffic accidents as well as the average citizen or a private for profit company who literally makes money off of its ability to disperse the scene quickly to open its highway back up
Firemen and can easily handle traffic accidents as well as the average citizen or a private for profit company who literally makes money off of its ability to disperse the scene quickly to open its highway back up
Seriously?
Put yourself in the position of a driver hit by a drunk driver. You’ve been hurt badly, and the medical bills are piling up. You had to have six months of physical therapy to walk right again. The case against the drunken driver who maimed you is coming up for court. Do you want your accident investigated and handled in by the fire department (who have no specialized training in accident reconstruction)? Or an average citizen (who, like you, probably learned everything you know about police work from TV)? or a private company (who just want to make money, whether you get any justice or not)?
Bullshit. If the shoe were on your foot, so to speak, you’d want a person with a stack of training, credentials, and experience to stand up for you in court and do his best to convince twelve other citizens that the other guy really, really needs to pay for what he did to you?
Seriously?
Put yourself in the position of a driver hit by a drunk driver. You’ve been hurt badly, and the medical bills are piling up. You had to have six months of physical therapy to walk right again. The case against the drunken driver who maimed you is coming up for court. Do you want your accident investigated and handled in by the fire department (who have no specialized training in accident reconstruction)? Or an average citizen (who, like you, probably learned everything you know about police work from TV)? or a private company (who just want to make money, whether you get any justice or not)?
Bullshit. If the shoe were on your foot, so to speak, you’d want a person with a stack of training, credentials, and experience to stand up for you in court and do his best to convince twelve other citizens that the other guy really, really needs to pay for what he did to you?
Is it seriously your contention that the men and women who are currently filling the role of police officers are somehow inherently able to do these things, or do you think maybe, just maybe, they were trained to do the things you mentioned. What, in your simplistic world view, prevents fire department officials or others from being trained in the same way? The issues raised in this article aren’t even the foundation for why people are angry with the police, target it is the concept of a select group of people enforcing arbitrary rules while themselves being exempt from said enforcement.
Jason, little boy, you are really on some sh*t! LOL
Greg, I tried to actually engage in dialogue and sought to discover reasons for why people feel we NEED cops, and you choose to simply dismiss my comments with nonsensical gibberish. I will respond in kind: go f*uck yourself.
Jason, little boy, I would eat you alive so go back behind your keyboard and have mom bring you another hotpocket.
lol
What prevents it? Time? Money? Equipment? Training? Desire?
I do not respond to idiots. GFYS
Firemen fight fires. They don’t investigate.
So will fireman handle burglaries? How about other investigations they are not qualified to do? What about a dispute with your neighbor who is 6’8″ and 500 lbs and you do not have the legal right to shoot him?
“or an interstate identity theft ring steals your personal information, and then your money”
-Don’t have computerized (ie – steal-able) IDs.
-Use cash.
-Have one-time-use electronic debit cards obtained from your small local bank or credit union. These could even be issued several at a time like a checkbook.
Problem solved.
Remarkable how the system tends to institute massive unworkable debacles, but yet never manages to step back away from them as being an error … the ‘answer’ is invariably More Power, not Less.
Yeah, and when a large horde of outlaw bikers ambush you during the anarchy without law, disarm you, rape you and your family, you’ll wish for the days you could post ignorant comments on the internet.
I am a police officer and the vast majority of CCW carriers that I meet in a city of over 2 million people are over aggressive and would use their gun in situations that do not call for them. CCW carriers do not have the experience of handling a tense situations that LEO’s handle on a weekly and sometimes daily basis depending on where their are employed. What makes police officers good t their job is training and real world experience which is something that CCW carriers do not have. Qualifying once a year and having a CCW card does make you an expert.
Interestingly enough, I’m also a cop, and the percentage of good CCW holders is about the same percentage as good cops. probably about 99%. Rarely do I ever run into someone carrying a gun who I wouldn’t want backing me up. We are a Shall Issue state, so lots of people carry guns. Most of them, I would want right behind me shooting at a bad guy. And I’ll gladly return the favor if they were ever in the shit.
Really! In the old West for a time there was no law enforcement and everyone was allowed open carry. Tell me how that worked out? The quickest solution to a disagreement was to kill the person. That happened a lot before law enforcement came along. Tell me that won’t happen again and I’ll know you’re a fool.
So, from what you’re saying, if somebody has a problem with their neighbor they just SHOOT them? Or if somebody is speeding over 100 mph on a side road we take out a gun and start blasting? If there is a car accident they open fire upon each other? Same for medical emergencies? What if somebody burgles your house? Who do you kill with your weapon then? What if someone’s child is lost? How does a gun solve that? What if somebody is more heavily armed than you are or if you cannot take your gun someplace? What about multiple armed suspects? I could have fun with this forever, but I will tell you next time don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. You, whatever you are, are unarmed. And the term is “concealed carry” which is NOT the law of the land. Many states prohibit that.
FOP fear mongering out in force, I see. Gotta protect those union dues.
As an Combat Vet and Ex LEO I think the bigger picture with the “cop hate” is more about a divided nation than social norms. Society at large has become so polarized it leads to these types of attitudes. John Q Public will never understand that you treat a traffic violation (stop sign) like it could be your last. The same goes for those of us who have gone down range trying to explain to John Q Public about the bond you form with your brothers, they will never understand. Now when an officer stops a car and is conducting business, he swaps from A pillar to B pillar to look around the interior of the car, and a few questions are part of him conducting himself as a professional. Would you, John Q public, let some random person who knocked on your door that you don’t know into your home at 2130 hours? Probably not, you don’t know them nor trust them. I was home visiting my parents a few years back and a full on felony stop went down right in front of the house. Three marked units, PA system commands, proned out, etc. My mom was disgusted with how the cops treated that man and said repeatedly how over the top the whole affair was. After she calmed down a little bit we talked. I gave her a few hypotheticals on the stop … from mild to real bad. When the situation was something along the lines of that man was armed, committed a violent crime, and what if when stopped he kicked in their front door to hide. Her response was to deploy the 357 mag she owned. At this point I put the question to her, so its okay for you to protect yourself form a dangerous criminal with a firearm but if the police do it they are “over the top”. While she didn’t care for the way I set her up for the fall with the dialogue but the point was made.
As an Combat Vet and Ex LEO I think the bigger picture with the “cop hate” is more about a divided nation than social norms. Society at large has become so polarized it leads to these types of attitudes. John Q Public will never understand that you treat a traffic violation (stop sign) like it could be your last. The same goes for those of us who have gone down range trying to explain to John Q Public about the bond you form with your brothers, they will never understand. Now when an officer stops a car and is conducting business, he swaps from A pillar to B pillar to look around the interior of the car, and a few questions are part of him conducting himself as a professional. Would you, John Q public, let some random person who knocked on your door that you don’t know into your home at 2130 hours? Probably not, you don’t know them nor trust them. I was home visiting my parents a few years back and a full on felony stop went down right in front of the house. Three marked units, PA system commands, proned out, etc. My mom was disgusted with how the cops treated that man and said repeatedly how over the top the whole affair was. After she calmed down a little bit we talked. I gave her a few hypotheticals on the stop … from mild to real bad. When the situation was something along the lines of that man was armed, committed a violent crime, and what if when stopped he kicked in their front door to hide. Her response was to deploy the 357 mag she owned. At this point I put the question to her, so its okay for you to protect yourself form a dangerous criminal with a firearm but if the police do it they are “over the top”. While she didn’t care for the way I set her up for the fall with the dialogue but the point was made.
Is he the author of the Chuck Norris jokes that were in every port-shitter in theater?? Great article and spot on in my humble yet absolutely fantastic opinion.
Unfortunately, things are skewed by the media. Based on the FBI’s UCR data (table 29 of the 2012 dataset specifically) there were over 12,000,000 arrests in the United States for that year, one conservative estimate I have seen estimates that there are roughly 80,000 tactical law enforcement operations per year. Doing the math that equates to 0.6% of all law enforcement operations involving tactical law enforcement, assuming every operation involved an arrest. Yet, I would bet over half of the media coverage involving LE covers the big scary sexy stuff. It is not the police we should fear, it is those who would vilify good for the sake of personal agendas.
Joseph, that number of tactical operations is much lower than the actual reported number. The department I worked for would count clearing a building for a homeless person a tactical call. there were enough tac guys working they would go in and clear the building as trained. Many of these incidents also include dealing with a suicidal subject where tactical personal take out less lethal equipment or negotiating with someone over the phone. A negotiator would do the talking while an arrest team was put together with patrol and tactical personal. This would be logged in as a call out. We do have an M113 apc. It is only used for incidents with armed individuals or parades. Using this for crowd control is antagonistic and would never be tolerated by anyone including tac guys. Unfortunately there are some departments who abuse their equipment and use it do harass and intimidate. That stain rubs off on all of us.
I have seen a few parades. Could you believe that there were also crowds involved? Should I bring a SAW to my local Police parade, so that I can make everyone feel safe? Fucking moron.
You are a fucking Alex Jones Dick Head. … Fuck Wad.
Well that escalated quickly.
Show us a video of an officer holding a saw at a regular parade where they were not expecting violent protests. Or for that matter show us a pic with any civilian police officer carrying anything bigger than an m4 ….. I am fairly certain you are an idiot Simon
A “police parade?” Where in the hell do you live, China?
Otherwise, it makes about as much sense as this:
What, you’ve never seen cops during a parade? Every Fourth of July in my hometown the motorcycle cops do a demo ride. The kiddies love it. The Fire Department shows up too. John Burch is right. Figures lie and liars figure.
A “police parade?” Where in the hell do you live, China?
Joseph, that number of tactical operations is much lower than the actual reported number. The department I worked for would count clearing a building for a homeless person a tactical call. there were enough tac guys working they would go in and clear the building as trained. Many of these incidents also include dealing with a suicidal subject where tactical personal take out less lethal equipment or negotiating with someone over the phone. A negotiator would do the talking while an arrest team was put together with patrol and tactical personal. This would be logged in as a call out. We do have an M113 apc. It is only used for incidents with armed individuals or parades. Using this for crowd control is antagonistic and would never be tolerated by anyone including tac guys. Unfortunately there are some departments who abuse their equipment and use it do harass and intimidate. That stain rubs off on all of us.
The Fan Belt Inspectors aka Full Blown Idiots could not investigate their way out of a paper bag with a hole on the bottom. Their “stats” are about as accurate as the quality of people driving while using their cell phones…. Just ask any real cop. Those guys are great lobbyists and media hounds, but that’s about it. They buy their way into investigations and throw whatever cool hip terrorism label is going on to steal cases and claim the stat. Otherwise, this is a great article above. Joseph, go do some ride alongs sometime – and ask for the worst part of a major city and during late in the evening…..
The FBI UCR Stats are actually submitted by all LE agencies. They just talley the numbers and release them. Not much investigating involved from them…thank God.
As a 7yr LEO with prior service (8yrs USAF as Mission Support), I cannot say enough how training, equipment and a strong mind can do wonders for Department’s across the U.S. in today’s age. I’ve worked in big cities and small towns, it’s usually the same thing…”meet new boss, same as old boss.” But with the right leadership that’s willing to listen to the lower echelon guys and take what training they’ve received, real world experiences they’ve had and advice to offer then things would be better. Many interactions with citizen’s have left me with plenty of ideas and programs to try and initiate so we can be a better Department for out community. But they take time, money and personnel. Sometimes all three of those things aren’t available in ample supply, leaving those ideas out in the wind long enough where they’re no longer feasible or hold the same interest. I’d like it to get better, but sadly for change to come to any job out there a tragedy has to happen for the upper management to take the first real step in making a new path for their staff/crew/employees.
Yours is the kind of attitude that needs to be reinforced in the LE community. We can often times make things better through introspection, especially when egos are left at the door. As a legislator, I would be thrilled to hear your suggestions for improving the system. A positive approach will get us a lot further than a negative one will…
Hi Simon,
I’m a Conservative state legislator (House of Representatives) who leans towards the liberty point of view. With that having been said; I am in New Hampshire where we don’t require insurance to operate a motor vehicle. Yours is not a bad idea though. Should we ever discuss requiring proof of insurance (and I hope we don’t) this is a great approach to take to the appropriate committee.
The camera idea is in use in some areas already but on a very limited scale. So far, it’s reserved for stop lights and toll booths. The feedback is mixed but it certainly is a revenue generator. However, it doesn’t sit well with the liberty folks, being that it is somewhat Orwellian in concept.
Finally, you are right, no one is above the law, nor should they be. Spousal abuse is an ongoing problem that requires an attitude of vigilance and the law enforcement community would do well to take care to seek the problem out and resolve it appropriately rather than protecting themselves. If you get the chance read Norm Stamper’s book, “Breaking Rank”. It’s an eye opener.
Thanks, and feel free to contact me directly at my legislative email address: [email protected] Please reach out to your legislators with your ideas. Your input really does have an effect…
Ted
Thanks for the reply. In my State, insurance is mandatory. If you are caught driving without it, you get a $750 fine. This fine is structured in such a way that you have no right for a public defender. Even if you do go to court, the only reason is to set up a payment plan. If you fail to pay fines levied by the State, or Child Support obligations, Washington State will suspend every licence issued too you by the State. This includes any state required business license. The State drivers guide has a preface where they announce their pride that the department of licencing reaches over 75% of the population, including children, with a variety of required licences. If you can not afford to pay a fine, you will get pulled over based on the ownership records tied to the licence plate number. Driving with a suspended licence is another $750. There is no right to face your accuser in a traffic stop in my State anymore. The judge simply accepts the sworn statement of the officer written in a note at the time the ticket is written. Although not under arrest, any statements made by the driver at the time of police contact is treated as a sworn statement, with no Miranda required. I have had a judge state in open court that if an officer gives you a ticket, then you must be guilty. We do have a great county auditor, however. And she has posted the entire county budget online. Every county employee is listed by name and job title, hours worked, and total yearly income. As well as the court statistics, but just the cases that the county sheriffs generate, none of the State Patrol or any of the four city police departments in the valley. Last year, the sheriffs wrote 70,000 citations of all sorts combined. 65,000 of them were traffic tickets with no allowable defense in court. Of the 5000 cases that warrant a public defender, or allow you to pay for your own , only 13 cases went to a jury trial. Every other case was given a “meet and plead” guilty verdict. Of the thirteen cases to actually go to a jury, only one man was found innocent. One man out of 70,000. This year the D.A. is retrying him. My county only has 110,000 residents. Last year the county wrote 1.5 million dollars in anticipated fines into the yearly budget. They worked hard at it and with the virtually 100% conviction rate, the managed to collect 2.5 million. The Federal Governments Department of Justice noticed the trend and after finding out that they average time spent per client by the defense lawyers was only seven minutes. And the entire public defenders combined had only visited clients in jail three times in one year. So the Federal Government stepped in and gave us a new team of public defenders. I looked up their salaries, and the new attorneys were only paid $35,000 a year. A starting wage for the sheriffs dept. is $65,000 a year. Last year, ten veteran sheriffs who make the higher $85,000 pay scale, had all put in 200 hours of overtime, and increased their salary to almost exactly $95,000 a year, but not one was over $100,000, which I presume would be counterproductive by putting them in a higher tax bracket. So just those ten sheriffs were paid nearly one million dollars last year. Exactly the same amount of extra tickets they wrote. As a lawmaker, I know that you must realize how many of the constitutional rights of my fellow citizens have been obliterated. I am no expert, but I believe that all Americans have a right to commerce, a right to face their accuser in open court, and because the only consequence of the majority of these citations have no jail time attached, if you have a lot of money, it is of no real consequence, and if you are poor, you may end up in jail for failure to pay the fines , and with no way to drive to work, many State residents end up as a kind of second class citizen. Slaves had more discretionary income than most of the citizens of my county. What I really can’t understand is why we are spending good money killig people who will never do a thing to my fellow Americans that will cause as much grief as our own police. Why even send men to die, just to protect the economic slavery that is epidemic. They say that driving is not a right, but a something to be earned. How many unlicensed drivers drowned in New Orleans because the city shut down the public transportation? With no cars, public transportation can, and has been used to control entire cities’ populations. If you look at the near past, stopping buses and mail deliveries stopped the Rodney King riots. I will never forget the image of hundreds of black families waiting in line at the post office to get money for food and rent, to support American children, and directly across the street a line of National Guardsmen with full assault-style rifles in hand, fingers on the trigger. I am not a politician. But I have a great way to make an impact at a protest. I plan to make a portable flat-screen display at least 50 inches wide. Then, while the news from around the world films, my sign will state the message in many languages, and in large, clear letters. For a closer shot, or an interview, my protest sign will have video of police abuses in the background, if that is the subject of protest at the time. Of course this is a million dollar idea for politicians as well. Imagine a election where all the paper signs are gone, and instead everybody has a notepad on a stick, with a local wifi network that can use each screen as an individual pixel, so if 40,000 people held them up, you would see one gigantic video monitor. This will happen someday soon, I just wish I could gather the team I need to build it before the next Presidential Party Conventions. My idea is for the campaigners to be able to use whatever notepad they already own, and my invention would just be the technology to link them all together. I do believe there are very specific protections regarding campaign signs, any intentional damage would be a Federal offense. This would afford the protection of property appropriate.
I was in the Air Force actually. That’s what USAF means. So yes I can read, thanks for asking 🙂 Not sure I see where the “door smashing, child murdering attitude” fits in with my post. Was only suggesting upper management could fair better if they listened a little more and sought advice from their guys instead of continuing down the same road as before. But hey, no worries in the end. This is a discussion of ideas after all. I’m just sorry you feel theway you do towards things, but it’s your right to do so. Take care and be safe either way! 🙂
Thank you for your levity. I admit I have been intentionally pushing a few buttons in here, and I had and have no personal animosity towards any of the comments made by anyone, to anyone. The freedom of discussion without censorship is worth the downside. As a civilian, I am aware of the great sacrifices made by the brave men who have given everything, even died, to defend the very ground beneath me. I beleive every young American that joins our military has honorable intentions, and will never consider enlisting was a mistake. Soldiers on the ground do not make decisions, and empirical evidence would suggest that our military strategies are with few exceptions, the best. That we are the most powerful in history is an undisputed fact. Policy is a different matter. The disconnect between our military and our elected officials is the real problem. A General can have a perfect strategy to obtain an objective, but in a Democratic society that places the responsibility of military policy, in a highly divisive political climate, our military objectives are subject to a four-year voting cycle. So The general can be doing everything perfect to accomplish a six year goal, only to arbitrarily abandon it for no military reason at all after he has dedicated four years and the lives of some of our greatest citizen-soldiers. To other Nations, we must appear to be as big of a threat as a bi-polar 800 pound gorilla in their living room. How do they know who we will decide is our enemy next? In defiance of international law, our country is and has been engaged in bombing our perceived enemies in countries that our Congressional Representatives have not declared war on. This short-sighted policy may seem as sound as the rest of our traditional strategies. This is only because we are still right by virtue of the empirical evidence up to this point. But the end-game of such a strategy has yet to be determined, as drone warfare is completely new. Irregardless of the merits of this policy, the Constitution demands a division of power, with the voting public given a role in setting War policy. No doubt this is all well known, and the reasoning behind a federally created construct such that is the C.I.A., to try and achieve some sort of continuity in our foreign policy goals. C.I.A. drone operations do fit through all of our Nations legal definition of “correct”, morally as a people we have been denied the intended citizen control over ordering the deaths of our enemies. Our Air Force is the best in the world, and in a modern war, air superiority is the only essential tool our military could not excel without.Even the notion of four different military forces being needed should be revisited. There have been some terrible decisions made in the vainglorious objectives of competing branches in our military. I encourage all Americans too research the second world war as much as possible. Every current world event is still tied to the decisions made in the 1940,s. As immoral as drone attacks may be, in the real world you still have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. And maybe in the future, when everyone in the world is powerless before our might, we will not abuse that power, and force our will upon the unwilling. I dream of peace for the world, and peace for all men in uniform, at war or not, I believe if you serve your country, your country should serve you in return.
This article left logical fallacies scattered on the floor like shell casings in order to reach the strange conclusion that if we don’t like a societal institution’s direction, we can’t educate, advocate, or enact law changes to fix it–we can only join the institution. What? I don’t like Congress at the moment. Now I have to be a politician to want my social institutions to work? Don’t like Obama? Shut up unless you’re willing to run for president. A closer look at the “cop hate” movement reveals not hate so much as “fear” — larger and larger swathes of the population feeling afraid and calling it “anger” or “hate.” This was a trifle sycophantic in tone.
Nathan Meyer wrote, “… to reach the strange conclusion that if we don’t like a societal institution’s direction, we can’t educate, advocate, or enact law changes to fix it–we can only join the institution.”
With respect, in the last two paragraphs of the article, the author specifically urges citizens to educate, advocate, & engage in actions directly related to legislative changes. This piece is an accurate, well-balanced article.
I did go back and re-read the last two paragraphs. I respectively disagree with your conclusion. The tone was entirely apologetic in nature and the suggestions, in a nation of 350+ million people, ludicrous. (Plus, up article, he seems to equate owning flamethrowers and silencers with being a FREE AMERICAN [his caps] and exercising the 1st Amendment in FB posts as a somehow dubious activity. Come on Doug, this was an apologist piece–not a critical analysis of the confusion of Warrior Ethos culture with civil policing. And you know what? It can be an apologist piece, there’s room for that–just don’t call it ‘well-balanced’. Let it be what it is.
Been a cop for 12 years and the only people I’ve EVER run across that were scared of police, (no matter what gear we were wearing) were the ones that had a reason to be afraid. The “warrior-ethos culture” as you put it has been an integral part of civil policing since the beginning. Up until 2003, your civil police saw 3 times more combat, as a whole, than all of the military services combined. Truth is, if there is not a war going on overseas, there is always one going on here. The author stated, plainly, that “WE” as a people of this nation, are responsible for any changes we want made. He never insinuated that the 1st Amendment be circumvented…he made it pretty clear that the ranting and hate speech serve no constructive purpose. And it doesn’t. Name me one politician, one Sheriff, one city councilman, or one Chief that bends to popular opinion on facebook…lol. I believe you were sucked in by the “I hate cops” title and are now upset that he didn’t, truly, support your hate. The piece was not intended to be “well-balanced”. Obviously you have never read any of the articles on here before. This site is not known for political correctness or being “well balanced”. If you want to read something that fits your sensitive pallet, try the Wall St. Journal. I think he pissed you off…and that was probably the whole intent…lol.
Define combat? Civil Police (is this in the USA?) saw 3 times more combat? Like organized groups with full auto weapons, tanks, APC’s, mortars and RPGs, IED’s?
Confirmation bias is also a logical fallacy.
That’s a pretty broad statement; “the only people I’ve EVER run across that were scared of police, (no matter what gear we were wearing) were the ones that had a reason to be afraid.”
How do you know who is afraid of you, or why?
As you note; “The piece was not intended to be “well-balanced”.” You’re right, but that doesn’t mean that an article published in a public forum won’t attract the attention of those who might disagree with it. In fact, I would suggest that you should want to hear what people have to say. After all, law enforcement is in place at the will of the people they are intended to protect. All too often, there is a feeling that law enforcement is somehow granted absolute immunity and that anything asked for should be granted in the name of “public safety”. As an armchair historian, that raises the hair on the back of my neck because it sounds a lot like the terms of a despot.
I absolutely deplore “hate speech” and rhetoric that is intent on belittling or demeaning another person, so we agree on that. However, I might suggest that not all is lost and we should encourage articulate and constructive criticisms of each other, no matter how painful they may be…
You say the only people you’ve ever run across that were scared of police were the ones that had a reason to be afraid. That means that peoples’ fear of the police is justified, not irrational.
The problem is the reasons to be afraid are more than just “I have, am in the act of, or am planning on committing a crime”. Another reason that people are justifiably afraid of the police is because they have made it clear that they have total authority over the civilian population and any challenge to that authority is punishable by arrest, assault or death. And now they have amassed the tools to enforce it without resistance.
The article says the police are equipped with military-grade weapons, armor and vehicles because they want to make sure they outgun their enemies. So when the civilian population in the US finds that the police are our enemies, what hope do we have in that fight?
The problem with wanting to out gun their enemies is just as the author states, as FREE AMERICANS a lot of people own far more fire power than law enforcement ever will.
I could say I don’t like cops, or I fear cops. Ultimately my feeling is this: What’s illegal? What ever the cop says it is. An officer can ticket, or arrest, you for many things that may or may not get thrown out. That’s a big deal, it can effect your life, your job, your civil rights.
If the police over step their bounds and/or violate someone’s rights, the “alleged perpetrator” can go through the system, pay for a lawyer, pray a judge sees things his way, and watch as the government’s agents walk away due to qualified immunity. Lots of harm, no foul. I will agree that the percentage of bad cops is very small, but a majority of police will look the other way when a bad player shows his colors.
Then there’s the idea of the “us verses them” mentality, where anyone who isn’t part of the force is part of the problem. Does that sound like concern for fear? I think it does.
There have been way too many people who have died in custody to say that there should be nothing to fear.
There in lies the problem. You equate law enforcement actions here in the US as a WAR, if even 10% of the nations police force think this way that is where the problem resides.
I read, but do not post much. That being said, Simon is a troll.
So, you can’t read much? or do you choose to remain ignorant? My money is on you being illiterate.
prior to 2003 police were in 3x more combat. Police and citizenry are not combatants. PERIOD. I dont fear the police I am honest and answer the question if ever asked politely and expect same. TO label police action as combat further erodes a shaky trust level with those whose job is to PROTECT AND SERVE, and we all know you have no obligation to protect just respond. Combat seriously that isthe problem language. it really does matter
Respectively? Or respectfully? Because those are two very different things.
Funny how no one was “afraid” of the cops in Boston who were in their armored vehicles and SWAT gear hunting terrorists. Got to love America.
I don’t understand your point. You can’t excuse bad behavior or a national militarization trends with an anecdote. Yes, cops operate in hostile situations, no one becomes a LEO through the draft or by accident. Citizens aren’t fearful when things go right–they’re terrified by badge-heavy aggressors protected by the wall of silence. Why shouldn’t they be? That is a scary thing.
There are very few badge heavy aggressors in respect to the total number of LEO’s.
That’s a logical fallacy as well. Just because the majority aren’t bad doesn’t mean there aren’t bad ones or that we shouldn’t be concerned about the bad ones.
I never said to not be concern about about bad cops. Good cops are concerned about the bad ones but just because some cops aren’t courteous doesn’t mean they are bad.
No. It’s not about having manners or being polite. It’s about them coming onto your property without permission or a warrant; it’s about them killing your dog; it’s about them shooting people in cold blood – don’t attempt to trivialize the discussion by saying that “just because cops aren’t courteous…”
Oh I get it now…You read the internet so you think you know what cops are about. Let me drop a little knowledge on you. Cops have thousands of encounters with dogs everyday and they don’t shoot them. If I am called to your house on a call for service I can knock on your door which I don’t need a warrant for. Cops don’t kill “in cold blood” as you describe so stop using buzz words you don’t understand. Close the laptop screen and get yourself a little perspective before you become a full on tin foil hat wearer.
Oh I get it now…you’re a cop….
If you think cops haven’t flat out murdered people, then you’re just as delusional as the people who think all cops are evil.
No I don’t think cop have murdered people, I think cops have made mistakes without having malice of forethought which is what murder is.
I’m not sure why credentials matter, but I am military with a bachelor’s in US History, and am about to complete my Master’s in Criminal Justice. I have multiple combat/advising deployments. I have many LEO friends whom I talk to regularly about these topics.
I also have something called a brain and common sense, and an unique ability to read. It is those attributes that give me the ability to comprehend and understand that many police officers have in fact, murdered people. I’m not talking about a call-gone-bad scenario. I’m talking about flat out, premeditated murder.
In addition to understanding that fact (notice – it’s a fact, not a theory – not a conspiracy – not an internet rumor), I also understand that many cops are dirty. Many engage in criminal activity themselves.
But even beyond these bad apples who surely make up the minority of law enforcement officers, there are even more who unintentionally violate the rights of everyday normal citizens. There are literally thousands of examples of this. If you’d like, I can link you to story after story where police officers have either been arrested, suspended or fired for breaking the law – either intentionally or unintentionally.
Now, if you’d kindly step down off that high horse you’re on, maybe we could have a productive conversation…
I’d like to have a productive conversation. I know there are cops who at times violate rights and aren’t the sharpest tools in he shed but I have a difficult time believing that a uniformed officers pulls out his weapon and kills out of premeditation. When cops are in a shooting the proverbial microscope gets put up their ašs and everything is scutinized. I’ve been in two so I know how that feels and it isn’t enjoyable even when they are completely justified which both of mine were. I’ve been on countless scenes where the media is present , yet when I read the story the next day it is hardly close to being right and I’ve seen some where out right lies were told by the reporter. I also have a good friend who is beat writer for the local paper and he is told by his editor to read between the lines when writing about police issues. These stories are the put out there as fact and are eaten up by citizens who cry cover up or foul play. Police work is not perfect and officera are allowed to make mistakes as long as here is good faith in what they were doing. If offixers couldn’t make mistakes no one would do this job.
Ok, a few things about what you just posted…
1. Whether you can or won’t accept it or not, there are been uniformed police officers convicted of murder – good ol’ fashioned, premeditated murder. Now, while Wikipedia isn’t the greatest source for information, it should suffice for this particular discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_police_officers_convicted_of_murder
2. We aren’t talking about when cops are forced to kill in self defense. Nobody has an issue with that here, from what I can see. Cops, according to a Supreme Court ruling, have every right to defend themselves. In fact, that particular case (Warren vs the District of Columbia) ruled that police officers do not have an obligation to protect private citizens. They are armed to protect themselves only – which really only gives even more credence to the points I’ve been making about having an inherent right to self defense of person and property.
3. While I agree that cops make mistakes, that fact alone does not excuse those mistakes. When innocent people are killed as a result of a “mistake”, it no longer is a “mistake” but a crime. Crimes, by definition, are mistakes. And while it’s true that cops are just humans like the rest of us, they have to live by a higher standard. Lethal mistakes are inexcusable – particularly when either negligence or incompetence on the part of the LEO is a factor. Look at the situation a few months ago in St. Louis for example. I firmly believe, based on the evidence and testimony that we now have, that the first shooting in Ferguson in which Michael Brown was killed was completely justified. I believe that Officer Darren Wilson was attacked and felt that his life was threatened. However, the shooting that happened a few days later that was caught on video is another story. The killing of Kajiemi Powell was flat out murder – whether 1st degree or not is not for me to say. But, I don’t believe a reasonable person would agree that the use of lethal force in that scenario was warranted. Now granted, Powell had a death wish. I don’t deny that – but, just because a person wants to die doesn’t give the police the authority to make their wish come true. Powell was armed – with a knife – and was a safe distance away from the cops when they shot him at least a dozen times.
That is an example of police making a mistake. I personally don’t believe that those cops made a decision to kill a man when they woke up that morning. I do believe that the entire police force was under an extreme amount of stress and pressure, and they as a whole were not acting responsibly due to the situation and events out of their control. That, however, does not excuse them from making a “mistake” in which a person died.
The Powell shooting was suicide by cop but it wasn’t murder. I don’t know what a reasonable distance is to you but the accepted distance in which an officer has time to react is 21 feet. The way I read it is the officers waited until the lest second before they shot. As far as how many rounds were fired…In both of my shootings I thought i fired no more than 3 rounds when in fact I fired 11 in my first one and 12 and my second one. If you wan to do some good reading I suggest on killing my Lt Col Grossman. I have all of his books on CD. I think if you read them or listen to them, it may change how to see certain things.
Cops may not legally be obligated to protect you but morally every cop I know goes out every night to help and save lives to the best of their ability. We live in a very litigious society so could you imagine if the Supreme Court ruled that all cops were legally obligated to save lives? I would hang up my badge tomorrow if that were the case due to the shear number of lawsuits I would face if I couldn’t save a life.
We differ in opinions when an officer makes a mistake. Mistake of fact shootings are going to happen and will continue to happen that are not criminal. Yes, crimes are mistakes but what makes a crime a crime is intent. No one commits a burglary by accident. No one commits murder by accident. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders so I empower you to seek out professional opinions before you go putting your faith in the media. The media is a for profit enterprise and they need page views and viewership to survive. Cops doing the right thing doesn’t sell advertising and paper deliveries.
Have you seen the video of the Powell shooting? It may have been suicide by cop, but that still doesn’t excuse the cops for using lethal force in a non-lethal situation.
And I have seen the DVDs of On Killing by Lt Col Grossman – who, by the way, has never fired a shot in combat in his life.
Like I said before, I’ve had many conversations on this topic with my LEO friends. I don’t take media at face value – come on, man. I’m in the military. Don’t you think I already have a serious doubt of the media?
You’ve made some correct assertions, and you may have cop friends…and a college degree in criminal justice (which is like having a degree in military studies but never being in the military), but you are out of your mind if you think a person confronting you with a knife is not a lethal force situation. I don’t have to be a cop to figure that one out, and anyone who thinks otherwise has probably not been in very many, if any, violent confrontations.
If you use fists, I use a taser, baton, flashlight or OC. If you use a knife, I use a gun. If you use a gun, I use a bigger gun, etc. It used to be called the +1 theory and it was explained in the article above.
Don’t try to tell me you would prefer to face a person armed with a knife while you have only a baton, or fists, or excellent conversational skills.
This “fear” of police is irrational. You cannot logically take the actions of a small minority, no matter how highly publicized, and extrapolate those to the point that it is a growing trend, any more than you can take the actions of a few in the military and assume that all members of the armed forces are cold-blooded killers of women and children.
Police, especially at the local level, are a reflection of their communities as a whole; because their ranks are drawn from the communities in which they serve. Their mindset in day to day matters are the same as those around them, and contrary to popular belief there are no indoctrination programs which teach them to look down on non-police or trample the freedoms of anyone who crosses their path. As the original author stated, there are always bad apples in every profession.
Brandishing a knife a good 20-25 feet away from a cop, with the cops already drawn down and aiming at the guy, is not really a lethal situation. Their lives were never in danger, nor were the lives of anyone else.
I don’t dispute the fact that the guy had a death wish. What I’m saying is that those cops were already on edge, tensions high, emotions soaring – none of that excuses them from killing a dude when it wasn’t necessary.
Now, if you define “necessary” differently than I do, I guess that’s another discussion altogether. I tend to believe that killing a guy should be the last resort, not the first reaction.
We are trained to use escalation of force. When the cops got out of their vehicles with weapons drawn and aimed, while shouting at the guy, they’ve jumped and skipped every level of escalation and gone straight to the point to where their only next step was to shoot the guy. There’s something wrong with that.
I have to address this. You keep saying a knife wielding crazy person 20 feet from you is not a lethal situation. You are dead wrong. I am a paramedic, a combat vet, and I have been in this situation many times. A person who is not in their right mind, who is asking you to kill them, has already decided someone is going to die. The change in the decision from I’m going to die to I’m going to kill you happens in the blink of an eye and your first indication that this decision has been made is sometimes when that knife is headed your way, sometimes the signs are subtle, a change in the eyes, grip on the weapon, a change in the voice, the slight shifting of body weight or foot position. Sometimes it just the “feel” of the situation changes. The point is, the indication that this guy flipped from suicidal to homicidal may not be visible in the video which is one of the reasons that making decisions based on video alone is a mistake. You’re only getting part of the story. This situation is absolutely a lethal force situation.
Apparently you were too busy composing that scathing response to actually read what I wrote. Since you missed a key point I’ll help your trolling ass out just this once. I AM A PARAMEDIC. I DON’T CARRY A GUN. I have faced many patients like this that had my brother and sister police officers not been there, I would not be here now. Maybe next time you should actually read a post before you flap your cum dumpster.
Since you were apparently too busy composing that biting response to actually read what I wrote, you appear to have missed a vital point: I AM A PARAMEDIC. I DO NOT CARRY A GUN. I have faced patients like this UNARMED. I have no doubt, in several of those encounters, that without the intervention of my brother and sister police officers, I would not be here today. Any LEO, fire fighter, or paramedic/EMT who has been in this situation and has had it go sideways understands exactly what I described.
Since you seem to think I was talking about “dirty looks”, you obviously have no experience with this whatsoever and you’re just running your cum dumpster.
Since you were apparently too busy composing that biting response to actually read what I wrote, you appear to have missed a vital point: I AM A PARAMEDIC. I DO NOT CARRY A GUN. I have faced patients like this UNARMED. I have no doubt, in several of those encounters, that without the intervention of my brother and sister police officers, I would not be here today. Any LEO, fire fighter, or paramedic/EMT who has been in this situation and has had it go sideways understands exactly what I described.
Since you seem to think I was talking about “dirty looks”, you obviously have no experience with this whatsoever and you’re just running your cum dumpster.
Since you were apparently too busy composing that biting response to actually read what I wrote, you appear to have missed a vital point: I AM A PARAMEDIC. I DO NOT CARRY A GUN. I have faced patients like this UNARMED. I have no doubt, in several of those encounters, that without the intervention of my brother and sister police officers, I would not be here today. Any LEO, fire fighter, or paramedic/EMT who has been in this situation and has had it go sideways understands exactly what I described.
Since you seem to think I was talking about “dirty looks”, you obviously have no experience with this whatsoever and you’re just trolling.
Since you were apparently too busy composing that biting response to actually read what I wrote, you appear to have missed a vital point: I AM A PARAMEDIC. I DO NOT CARRY A GUN. I have faced patients like this UNARMED. I have no doubt, in several of those encounters, that without the intervention of my brother and sister police officers, I would not be here today. Any LEO, fire fighter, or paramedic/EMT who has been in this situation and has had it go sideways understands exactly what I described.
Since you seem to think I was talking about “dirty looks”, you obviously have no experience with this whatsoever and you’re just running your cum dumpster.
O.K. life saver, I apologize. Paramedics are all saints, I forgot. Like when the paramedics let one of the North Hollywood bank robbers bleed out for 45 minutes, alive in pain, while the paramedics put band-aids on skinned knees. It sounds like you think men in a uniform are somehow a better, more righteous person to help first if there is a choice. Triage is the process of treating multiple victims, with the most severe getting the first lifesaving help. As whacko as that gunman was, he is still a human being, and every EMT on scene betrayed their Hypocratic oath.
“It sounds like you think men in a uniform are somehow a better, more righteous person to help first if there is a choice.”
I didn’t say this, imply this, or hint at this. YOU said this. And I’m well aware of what triage is, having done it more times than I can count.
Anyway, spew you crap. I’m done feeding the troll.
Fun fact for anyone interested: EMT’s do not actually have to take the Hippocratic oath.
Incidentally, that’s also the correct spelling of the word “Hippocratic”.
Seems to me that you are a criminal-loving scumbag, Simple Simon, and the Hippocratic Oath — learn how to spell it first! — is only taken by physicians and PA’s. You obviously you have no education or experience in these matters and have the mind of a child. Stick to what you are best at — JERKING OFF!
Doctors take that oath, not EMTs. Sounds like you are a keyboard commando, living in mommy’s basement, killing off the last two brain cells that are fighting for first place!
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Justin, please share all of your “lethal situations” you have been in and highly violent confrontations you have experienced that would allow for your input in a matter such as this. Waiting…..sitting behind a keyboard and critiquing what an officer should have done sure is stressful……Unless you have been there, and I can assume that you have not, judge not. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt……
In my opinion the police are civil servants that should serve their citizens. It’s not a matter of what THEY prefer, it’s a matter of what WE prefer. And I personally prefer that they not kill citizens unless it is an absolute last resort. None of this “well he could’ve been trouble, so we plugged him”. Of course we should protect their safety as best we can, but they are the ones volunteering for this dangerous job. Their safety should not automatically trump the safety of the civilians.
As for your final paragraph, one problem with some departments is that they are NOT a reflection of their community. If you draw from just one specific subset of the community then you don’t represent the whole community.
We can’t very well hire miscreants and thugs can we? We hire from the best of the community but even that doesn’t stop a few from doing bad things. You’d prefer not to get a ticket, you’d prefer I don’t show up to your house if someone calls the police because you and your old lady are fighting, but it doesn’t work that way. We do serve the public but it doesn’t mean that we won’t enforce the law that you let your elected officials pass. I am law enforcer not a law maker. I use discretion is situations that call for it but that largely depends on your and your demeanor.
How can you be sure the best of the community is even applying to be an officer?
There are three types of problems in terms of cops doing “bad things”.
First there is the mistake or breach in protocol. It’s understandable that people make mistakes but they also get punished for them in any occupation and if the mistake is severe enough they can be terminated. In ANY occupation. But officers are not always held accountable, even for a breach in protocol that ends in a death. This is a problem to me.
The second are bad things that are supported by the department. Directives that result in unfair or overly harsh treatment, biases inherent in the community of police force that may harm a specific group, or training that focuses on fighting criminals and not keeping the peace. I’m not in LLEA, but my understanding is that this all comes down from the chief who is straddling law enforcement and politics. A lot can go wrong here and this is my biggest concern with our admittedly top-notch LLEA.
The third thing is the crooked cop. A cop who doesn’t give a shit about any of this and was drawn to the badge for the power it provides. Like crooked politicians, these people are the worst scum in the country. They pervert the justice system and make people lose faith in it.
My point here is that there are things we can do to improve these issues. The author flippantly tells us to complain to our congressman or whatever, but the point is the power of the police stand in the way of people really making a change. And I think that’s why people hate the police (and politics, coincidentally). They use their authority to have it their way instead of just serving their intended purpose of representing the interests of the citizens.
Simon, You obviously have issues that need to be addressed by a professional. It sounds like you generally hate cops.. Tell me why.. give me the reason or reasons why you hate us so damn much.. were you mistreated by a police officer in the past? this pent up rage against cops is one of the reasons why we are always on our toes ready to react. your anger will only get you into trouble in the future and I highly recommend you see someone to adjust your anger
Simon.. I served three tours in Afghanistan and let me tell you.. the shit always went down and when it did.. i ran TOWARDS it..youth of America… You sound like one of those conspiracy theorists that have nothing to better to do than argue with everyone that makes a strong point. You think you are all powerful behind a keyboard but you will be the first person that will cry for help and yell injustice when you make threats and comments about the YOUTH RISING UP! You say your country? What have YOU done for your country other than sit on your ass and plague the streams that everyone is fascist and that “The Man” is out to get you.. I am a Combat Veteran that has bleed and sweat for his country and to preserve YOUR civil liberties.. Don’t downplay my choices in life because you were ill afforded a chance of making a difference. Tell me.. what have you done to better improve YOUR country?
The power of the keyboard, as you say, has overturned more despots in the Middle East than 50 years of official U.S. foreign policy. Twitter connected the people to unite them against tyranny, not guns, or any army that ever tried. How completely wrong you are. The pen is mightier than the sword, and the internet is more powerful than any government. Freedom of information will destroy any Fascist institution. It has become abudently clear that anybody who demands secrecy is, and has been doing immoral acts.
I thank you for your service to your country. Anybody that joins an Army of his own free will in a time of combat is a hero in my book. I am not your enemy. And you should not be mine. I am none of the things you presume. The only message I am trying to convey is that presumptions are why you have been needlessly at war in the first place. There is a reason our Constitution requires the consent of the voters to commit war acts. You would have to be incredibly narrow minded at this point if you did not realize by now that the Afghan people represent absolutely no threat to my liberty to do anything I want. Just like the last 1000 years. The personal need you feel to avenge fallen comrades is natural. And that is why we vote to go to war. If we left foreign policy decisions to the military,The killing will never stop until the last man is standing. As much as you may dislike it, when you signed up for military duty you gave up most of the rights you claim to defend. there is no democracy in a command structure, and for good reason. And seeing as how the actions being taken have made my rights disappear as well, Somebody has to actually say the truth, prove it as fact, and get you, and every other American soldier out of harms way. If there was no referee in a boxing ring, two men in combat would never stop until one man is dead. Figuratively speaking, it is time to ring the bell, and throw in the towel. war is a sport for the men who bark your orders. The elected President is the referee in the game of war. And this fight has gone on well past the bell.
I’m not going to get caught up your blatant attempt to be an online keyboard douche bag because you know and I know those words wouldn’t come out of your mouth in person. I am sorry a cop fücked your girl in the aśś and now you hate all cops, but maybe if you tried pleasing her instead of digging at me you wouldn’t have those types of problems.
Says the aśś hat on the internet.
I used to live in Washington State and you could not be more wrong.. If someone enters my domain and is only carrying a bat, I have the legal obligation to Defend myself and any other human life inside the home. I think you may be confused about it being unjustified somehow.. do I have the right to just shoot them if they are just standing 30 feet away with a bat after entering my home? No i don’t. T o legally shoot them, I first would have to make them aware that I am wielding a firearms and give them a choice to leave before I can fire my weapon. If at that time they do not leave or they start to advance at you, are you allowed to fire your gun at them.. Every citizen in the United States is allowed to defend themselves. Here in Maine, you cannot legally stop someone from stealing your car by shooting them unless they are presenting a danger to someone.
You are correct. If the man with the bat takes a step out onto your porch, you still can not shoot him, because there is the option of closing your door and calling the police. You do have the right to detain him, however, but you can not tie him up, or that could be twisted around to unlawful imprisonment by a good defense lawyer.
chances are, if the man has stepped out of your home you wouldn’t need to detain them. at this time, it is your sole purpose to be the best witness you can to allow police to be able to find this intruder. vigilante justice ended in the days of cowboys and Indians.. It ended in the days shortly after Sir Robert Peel implored the beginnings of the modern day policing, or the “bobbies” in England. there is no real reason to detain them and yes.. a great defense lawyer would consider this because the sole purpose of the “castle doctrine” as it is known.. is to protect everything in your home. by detaining them, you are putting yourself at risk and actually making you now be the one committing the crime.
In my professional educated opinion, the Powell shooting is 100% justified. he was yelling shoot me while getting within 4 to 5 feet of the officers before they shot him. They can’t just pack up and leave in that situation. Powell could’ve done real damage with one lunge with that knife.
4-5 feet? He was at least 20 feet away when they started shooting.
Then, something else I didn’t get into earlier, but I’ll bring it up now – what about all of those witnesses? When was the last time a shooting took place that you responded to, and you decided to tell all of the witnesses to go home without taking any names or statements from any of them? You have people who are visibly recording the entire episode on a camera of some sort, and you clear them out of the area forcefully without thinking that they might be an important part of your investigation??
Nothing right happened in that shooting. Nothing.
Powell fell at that officer’s feet and in fact the officer had to back up to keep Powell from falling on his feet. Justin I’ve been involved in two shootings and I can tell you from a first person perspective that after you shoot someone who is coming at you with a weapon it takes a few minutes to get yourself back in the right frame of mind. It is not an easy thing to snap right out of it and start collecting voluntary statements. That’s why we have detectives who spend weeks and months taking recorded statements from witnesses. I guarantee those officers have nothing to worry about when that case goes before any grand jury because the only thing else they could’ve done is run away. Powell wanted to get shot and he made dámn sure he got close enough and acted in a manor to get himself shot.
I’m not the expert on this, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong – but it doesn’t matter where the guy ended up after being shot – it matters where he was when they started shooting. Watch the video. When the cops start shooting, Powell is on the raised part of the sidewalk, a good 4-5 feet from the ledge when the first shots are fired. His arms are at his side, and he makes no violent or quick movements towards the officers. In fact, he’s much closer to the officers when they first pull up than he was when they shot him.
The first rounds hit him, and he falls forward towards the ledge, then falls off the ledge where he rolls completely over twice, finally ending up still not even at the door of the cop’s vehicle. The cop certainly didn’t have to move out of the way to avoid Powell falling on him, as you stated. They fired 8 shots at him, 6 immediately and 2 more after he had fallen and come to a stop on the lower sidewalk – still a good 4-5 feet from the cops themselves.
How can you watch that video and conclude that these officers acted appropriately? If you believe that shooting someone was their only option, and that they should execute that option as soon as possible, then I guess they were justified. I tend to believe that there were other steps that could have been taken, and based on the video (which shows the entire ordeal, not just bits and pieces of it) I believe these cops arrived on scene on edge, nerves shot, tensions high and adrenaline pumped. I don’t believe they intended to kill someone when they woke up that day, but I believe that due to the stress they all had been under, they acted irresponsibly.
And it wasn’t the cops who shot him that ran the witnesses off. It was the other cops who arrived on scene after the shooting. How will the detectives, months later, know who to interview if all of the witnesses were run off without their names or contact information being taken?
That entire call last seconds from the time the officer’s showed up until shots were fired…If Powell would’ve stayed stationary and not moved then yes an officer could’ve attempted to tase him or use a low lethal bean bag shot gun. As soon as officer’s got out of their car, Powell starting yelling shoot me and began to walk towards the officers but they didn’t shoot him fat enough so he continued to get closer until they did. I’ll guarantee those officer’s were scared and did not want to shoot him but they had no way of knowing if Powell wanted to stab them or just get him self shot. If they choose not to shoot him and Powell stabs one of the officer’s then what? The cop dies? He has superficial cuts and is ok? he’s stabbed and has life changing injuries? I’ve seen gruesome bloody homicides caused by a steak knife.
It does matter where Powell fell because that is where he was going before he was shot via forward momentum.
Anytime cops employ the “shoot first, ask questions later” strategy, it’s not a good thing. The incident lasted mere seconds, because that’s how long the cops waited to start shooting. As I said earlier, Powell was closer to them after they pulled up (when he’s standing by the lamp post) than he was when they actually started shooting him.
Let me ask you this – at precisely what moment did Powell present an immediate threat to the officers or to any of the bystanders? At what exact moment did he threaten any of their lives? What exact act warranted him being killed?
Was it the last step he took before being killed? Was it the fact that he didn’t put the knife down after they told him to? Was it the fact that he told the cops to shoot him?
If you watch the video (and I have many times) you can easily see that he was not even reasonably close enough to the officers to pose an immediate threat. Even if he were to suddenly lunge at them, he would have needed 2-3 steps then a leap from the elevated terrain to the sidewalk to reach the nearest officer. When that officer already has his weapon aimed at him, it’s really a stretch to think that Powell could have successfully attacked either officer. And again, at no point did Powell make any sudden movements towards the officer or raise the weapon in a threatening manner.
And where he ended up is not where he was going. That’s not how physics work – you should know this.
As soon as Powell pulled a knife out of his pants when two officers arrived he became a threat to them. When the officers yelled “drop the knife” at least twice and he didn’t drop the knife, he was a threat. If the officer’s showed up and got out of their car and immediately started shooting I would agree that more could’ve been done to deescalate the situation but did Powell appear to act in a manner that was conducive to an interactive conversation? Let’s remember these are two uniformed officer’s who are in a patrol vehicle. Powell knew this and still took out his knife and yelled “kill me” at least twice and came within at the very least 20 feet and could’ve been 5 to 10 feet depending no the angle. Remember, the Supreme Court has ruled that hindsight information cannot be used to judge the officer’s actions, only what they knew at the time. They arrived, Powell pulls out a knife, the officer’s yell “drop the knife” twice, but Powell refused and continued to walk towards the officer’s and then they shot and had Powell fall at their feet.
Playing devil’s advocate here, the cops arrived and immediately drew their weapons. Powell, at this point, did not have a knife brandished. He had his hand in his pocket, and his other hand hanging free. At this point, all we know is that he just stole two energy drinks and some donuts – is it really justified for cops to draw their weapons on someone who has just stolen two energy drinks and donuts?
They had no idea he was armed – at least, not from what we can tell from the video. They had weapons drawn, aimed at him as soon as they got out of their vehicle. He had, at this point, not shown any aggression nor had he posed any threat towards them.
When the cops pulled up, he shoves his hand into his pocket and steps back. They drew their weapons based on his actions. They did not know if he had a weapon. He then pulled out the knife and began walking towards the cops yelling, “Shoot me! ” Sounds like he got what he asked for!
Everyone says their taxes pay the cops’ salaries and they work for them. Sounds like they were doing as the person who pays their salaries demanded!
“hindsight information cannot be used to judge the officer’s actions, only what they knew at the time. They arrived, Powell pulls out a knife, the officer’s yell “drop the knife” twice, but Powell refused and continued to walk towards the officer’s and then they shot and had Powell fall at their feet.”
What if he were legally deaf under the ADA, what would the cops have known or done differently .. before killing him?
If they were legally deaf they wouldn’t be in a patrol capacity.
“If they were legally deaf they wouldn’t be in a patrol capacity.”
Wow. Not a big fan of context are you? You mention Powell by name, the officers are unnamed [in your sentence] and also Plural. Generative grammar shows us the only possible use of “he” in the question will refer to the singular person who is most obvious. The officers aren’t a “he”, they’re a “they”, and of incidental context compared to a named figure. You can’t wind your way through an English sentence, but somehow have a genetic superiority to firemen in investigating traffic incidents..
What if —-Powell—- were deaf and could not hear the officers bleat their neurotic overreaction to a worst case: held, as of yet: unweilded, small knife?
– “When the officers yelled “drop the knife” at least twice and he didn’t drop the knife, he was a threat.”
What would the cops have known or done differently .. if —Powell— were deaf .. before killing him?
Nothing. They were in pop-up target mode per their paranoiac/militarized training. These are the problems.
‘OMG A Distant Knife!!!’ is just a half-step better than ‘OMG a Pocket Constitution in the Back Seat!!!’ .. which has also actually occurred live on tape, in case you’ve never caught that display of brilliance and bravery.
‘What will mess with your head later is if you would have still broken the vase if I hadn’t mentioned it’ – The Oracle, Matrix 1
Consider this — if people knew that cops were less overreactionarily violent, ie – that cops would calm down the situation and subdue them into custody using only the minimal-necessary force, and in a rational escalation thereof … if you couldn’t so readily depend upon a cop killing you … would people -still- be trying to commit ‘suicide-by-cop’?
“POWELL” is not deaf and blind and last time I checked it’s a social norm to know and understand that pulling a knife on a cop and walking within feet of them will get you shot, and it doesn’t matter what State, County, or City you are in, it will be a legally justified shooting.
it’s simple, a knife has and will always be considered a deadly weapon. If you pull out a knife on a police office and yell shoot me as you walk towards the officer, you will be shot, and it will be justified no matter what idiotic scenario you come up with. I’m shaking my dàmn head at how stupid you are. I hope you don’t try out this knowledge you think you have in real life with a police officer because you’ll be owned….You’re an idiot who needs to get a clue,
Hey man, just wanted to say, way to fight the good fight. This Simon punk is unreal. He’s a coward and if not for the anonymity of the web I doubt he would keep up that condescending air of superiority. Doesn’t take much courage to talk shit online and this cat is talking some shit. I’m a service member myself and I’ve got too much pride in the sacrifices my buddies have made to just let this fucker slide. I would’ve replied to one of his messages myself but I just don’t have that much faith in humanity and I think I would’ve lost my temper.
Right! Sure! Time to get the hip boots out!
When I went through the police academy, legal precedence stated what was then known as the “21-foot rule.” A person with a knife within 21 feet of a potential victim, including police, brandishing the weapon, automatically authorized the use of lethal force in the defense of human life because 21 feet could be crossed in less than one second and a fatal wound inflicted on said victim. This was based on a SCOTUS ruling, which may have changed since then, but that’s what my training and experience amounted to.
The problem that many people have is that they assume that, “Person A has a gun, person B does not, so Person B will do whatever Person A says.” If the cops are called, chances are that’s not the case. A person brandishing a knife towards anyone 21 feet away or less is an immediate threat to life, and that threat, if not taken seriously and responded to in an appropriate manner leads to dead innocents.
I’m not familiar with the incident you’re describing, but if a bad guy waved a knife at me and was close by, I’d double-tap him without a second thought, and I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. If that’s the sum total of the situation, the cops were in the right.
Yes, some cops do illegal and terrible things. Most cops don’t. That’s why it gets so much press when that minority is caught in the act. If the majority of cops were crooked, then crooked cops wouldn’t make the news. If you think most cops are crooked, maybe they are- IN YOUR AREA. America is huge both geographically, demographically, and population-wise. Some departments abuse their military-style gear. Most don’t, or it wouldn’t make the news.
Just my opinions and experience. Think what you will.
I guess if there is an actual 21 foot rule, then I would have to assume that the officers involved didn’t have a referee with a measuring tape on the scene, but the police simply making an abitrabitrary observation that perceived threat would logically become 21 feet. If witnesses were told to move on, it was because of this exact 21 foot rule that would justify his actions. Like a child making up a lie too conceal that the ate a cookie, from the cookie jar. The police should at least be held up to the same scrutiny as a four year old child.
You’re right, in a SHTF scenario, there ARE no referees, and cops have to be given discretion and the benefit of the doubt until they are shown to be evildoers, and we live in a nation that doesn’t practice the Napoleonic Code (guilty until proven innocent). Yes, they would have to estimate 21 feet. Usually, in court, with cops, just as with Soldiers, it boils down to “my training plus my experience equals this conclusion.” Cops, just like Soldiers, are allowed to protect themselves, and are often given wide discretion to do so, because otherwise we wouldn’t HAVE cops or Soldiers. Most four-year-old kids that I know AREN’T trigger pullers, so you’re making a false comparison. When you have a knife-wielding bad guy and a brain flooded with adrenalin, you may estimate 30 feet to be 21 feet. It happens.
In the end, what matters (and I again give the disclaimer that I didn’t see the video you’re talking about, so all my comments are generalizations and should not be treated as gospel related to this particular incident) is that you have a knife-wielding bad guy who’s making credible threats to people with a clear and visible ability to carry out those threats. In that situation, the knife-wielding bad guy is responsible for having gotten himself shot. Assuming the knife-wielding bad guy was credibly threatening people, I don’t give a shit if the cop was Officer Hannibal Lecter or the world’s biggest asshole, on THIS shooting, the cop should be told, “Thanks for doing what had to be done, officer. Here’s a shitload of free counseling for you for the next several years.”
About half the time in our country, people bitch and moan when the cops fail to intervene in a bad situation. Then as soon as the cops intervene in other situations, we bitch and moan about how they shouldn’t have. Usually the problem isn’t the cops. Usually the problem is that, by the time law enforcement and the courts get involved, there IS no happy outcome, there’s just the least-shitty outcome possible, and sometimes there’s not even that.
Humans are very often noble, wonderful, selfless and magnificent beings. Unfortunately, when cops are called, its because we’ve become sloppy, messy hairless apes that need to be treated as such. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, in my experience, people bitching about what assholes cops are should turn around and look at the asshole the cops just stopped from killing, raping or otherwise victimizing the people around them. Are there bad cops? Yes. Are there crooked cops? Absolutely. Does this mean that all cops are bad or crooked? Far from it. Usually, cops become assholes because they always deal with the hairless apes of society. Nobody calls a cop to report that they just had a great day. They only call the cops when their lives are falling apart, and the cops get to come take a report about it and try to clean up the mess.
Just because he was deaf, does not mean he cannot see cops pointing guns at him!
Weeks?….Yeah you have no idea how that works.
The man you are arguing against seems that shoot first , ask questions later is the only way to go. As a police officer you are expected to act professionally …. If you want the responsibility of having a gun and holding peoples lives in your hands , you should be held to a higher standard. This dude seems to think it’s ok to just be human , and make mistakes , and take a life …and oh well I’m a cop and I was scared.
Wtf kind of mentality is that?
Lethal force should always be the LAST option you use. If you see a man with a knife your gun should not come off your hip until you have deployed mace or stun gun … Situation dictating. If a man has a knife to a woman’s throat .. Ok … But standing 10 yards from anyone ….. Why was he murdered?
The dude you are going against justin …. Is the exact cop I fear. And I can be the loves that statement.
I hope your momentum carries you face first into a barrel of shit, because you belong there.
What about non-lethal solutions? The man is obviously troubled but could be helped. Like the article says, the cops are fighting a war here at home. We need to change that mentality back to what it should be; they are providing a service to the citizens. How is gunning down a man who is in anguish serving anyone?
But the author is right, if we want this to change we need to actually do something about it. Let’s go to our government and demand training in handling distress in non-lethal ways. Let’s teach our cops how to talk down a threat, not just take them down. These people are often just crying for help, in a moment of desperation. They don’t need to die.
Where I am from and where I work, my most used tool is my mouth but in this situation the officers had very little time to establish a dialogue before he pulled out the knife and started his approach yelling “kill me”. If he stayed where he was at and didn’t move, hen yes I would agree, but he didn’t. I think my verbal judo skills are top notch and I would’ve shot Powell as well.
No I’d give my gun to you so you can out us all out of your misery.
It was the fact that he had a knife not that he yelled kill me. Come on man…use your head.
Peace. You win. I have been writing inappropriate, and abuse comments. I will stop, but I should be courteous enough to explain the motives for such an agenda. American Law Enforcement are our countries first line of defense. The military actions we take have no effect on a direct threat to an American on our continent. And if invaders were to threaten us, it would be the local policeman that would save you, not some Federal Agency that takes days to respond. That being said, if our legal system fails to satisfy the need for equal justice for all Americans, then all the good intentions in the world are not going to get the average citizen to see a policeman as nothing but a threat, if just a few bad cops ruin it for the rest. Words are words, only that. To hate, or fear something that could be an imaginary construct, can lead down a very dark path. Blind obedience to commands combined with impunity from accountability is what convinced ordinary Germans to murder millions of people, solely based on a constructed perception of those being murdered as being less than human, and deserving of their fate. Once again, peace, and good luck with whatever you intend to do with your little bait shop here! Props!
This is more like it. I do have blind all alligence to anything. I think for myself and understand that the power I have must be used responsibly and that I am empowered by the tax paying community. I do not want to kill anyone and deadly force is always a last resort.
So you’re saying you carry less than lethal methods of pacification for… nothing? And that they do for nothing either? If there’s more than one cop with mace and a stun gun and the dude was far enough away, lets not kill anyone that doesnt need to be killed. I’ve been reading your comments and I see your point of view, but you should really step away from the badge for a second and see the other guys’ point.
I’ve used low lethal several times and maybe they could’ve use it a taser or LL shotgun if they had more time to deescalate. My department has added a few more steps to Graham vs. Connor including tim officer has to deescalate the situation. They had seconds to make a decision not minutes.
How is facing someone with a knife a non-lethal situation? Even a pocket knife of 3-4 inches can easily kill you. I ask you are you one to go hand to hand with someone with a knife who is hell bent on being killed or killing someone else, cause if you are then well, not sure what to say. But someone having a knife is absolutely a lethal situation, if you have enough officers with lethal cover, why not try non-lethal, but you still have to have lethal backup if the non-lethal means does not work. You should have learned from your studies in Criminal justice that what they faced was a lethal situation.
It easily could have escalated into a lethal situation, but as the video shows, nobody’s life was in any immediate danger.
Just because a dude has a knife and is screaming to be shot doesn’t mean he should in fact be shot.
At no time did he raise the knife, make a sudden move as if raising the knife, make a move as if to throw the knife, nor make any other gesture with the knife that would have indicated he was going to use the knife to hurt someone. He was holding the knife down at his side the entire time.
Justin….. Flat out, your an ignorant dumbass who dosnt know shit… So stay on the Internet waisting your life away, while you read about other people living theirs. Oh and when you family is in need of police assistants, CALL SOMEONE ELSE to help you. Go get a life. Ya you justin, you still here thinking of a reply to my post? Dude you really are sad. Well I’m out, don’t think I’ll see any reply you send… I’ll be gone and living in the real world. Keep living that computer screen life, dumbass. No one like you.
Sweet post, dude. With sound, logical arguments like that, I don’t see how anyone could ever disagree with you.
[EDIT – Just so you guys know, we are deleting some (not all) of the posts from “Simon Hansen”. We’re all about academic debate and disagreement (even when it gets heated), but some of the ridiculosity is too much to bear. We won’t be banning him from the site completely, but the posts where he does things like compare all LEOs to Nazi SS guards, well that’s just fuckery of the first order. Please also consider that he may very well be intentionally trolling. It’s hard to believe anyone would say things as stupid as what he has said and expect anyone to take him seriously. Simon – if you want to engage in intelligent discourse, please make it intelligent. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with us, not by any means, just don’t be an asshole. For anyone who feels we are censoring him – well, yeah. It’s our site. We’ll delete what we deem to be offensive or that material which doesn’t contribute to the conversation. Thanks for everyone weighing in. Mad Duo]
I found an intruder in my basement that was a fugitive felon who had been pulled over across the freeway from my house. He was a six foot 240 Mexican Gang leader, 36 years old, and an illegal alien, who when he was pulled over by the Sheriff, though he had nothing to lose. So he ran across the freeway, the Sherfif called in the State Patrol, and the city cops. They had fifteen officers with guns drawn combing the streets for this guy, because he had eaten an eight-ball of cocaine and pulled a 38 revolver on the cop who initially stopped him. My roommate saw him enter my basement and informed me. So I went in, and ripped his head off, put him in a sleeper hold, and choked him out for fifteen minutes while the cops were walking at a snails pace, scared shitless. So I stopped a fleeing Felon, who was armed with a 38, all high on cocaine, with my bare hands. When he wasw put in the county jail with all of his gang buddies, he lied and said ten Rednecks held him down. When the rumer mill learned that me, Simon, had whooped his ass, he lost all standing in his gang, and was turned into the prison bitch he deserved to be., So yes, I have done a policemans job many times. It is not my job. It is the cops job. I am just an honest Marijuana businessman. Now that Weed is legal in Washington, I will be able to stop self-policing the industry. Now the Police in Washington have to obey the word of the law, and protect my property, even if it used to be a narcotic on par with heroin. Big deal, I say, because the police have been protecting the pharmacies so they can sell Oxycontin, which is even more powerful than heroin, just in a pill, so it’s “legal”
I highly doubt that! I would like to see a reference to the newspaper or television news story link!
Non lethal?? You can’t be serious, as wolf hunter 11 already stated, it takes 1.5 seconds for a person to travel 21 feet, which is just enough time for a trained officer to draw their weapon and get a round off..anything closer you will end up being stabbed. And guess what? People die from stabbings everyday! Maybe you should think about it this way, if your child was being approached by a person with a knife and you’re armed with a gun, what are you going to do?? Let him stab your child? Or you??
Thank god someone with the experience to discuss the topic has weighed in. Someone is actually talking about the appropriate reactionary gap, adrenaline dump, and the multitude of factors that go into a split second life and death decision that an LEO must make. I’m so glad that someone other than an armchair quarterback is discussing this. Thank you! I get so tired of cowards, sitting at a computer, who have the temerity to criticize an LEO for such decisions when they have NO understanding of what police officers deal with every day. I want LEO to be as militarized as they can get. I don’t want the thugs to out-gun the police. Whatever it takes to come home safely at night to their families, after they have dealt with the ugliest part of society.
You may disagree with me but the rules are different with police officer’s acting in the line of duty.
Is suicide a federally protected Constitutional right? No. Will an attempted suicide put you behind bars? Yes. Is there any rational behind the police facilitating a crime? Never. Shooting a man that begs to be killed is not legal for any citizen of the United States. Is a police officer a citizen? I will let you answer that.
You keep forgetting he had a deadly weapon in his hand.
With all due respect, Justin, I would hope that your Criminal Justice background would have covered the element of “intent” which is typically a key part of proving that a “crime” was committed. Your reference to a mistake being automatically equal to a crime indicates that you do not understand the criminal justice system, and more specifically, you do not understand the job of law enforcement officers.
For example, if you ended up shooting someone who was armed with what turned out to be a replica firearm, should you be arrested and convicted for murder? Make up your own scenario as to the details of what led to the shooting, but take the honest perspective for yourself to believe that you shot the person defending yourself or others. Should you be charged with a crime? Should you be sent to prison for life?
I don’t have a background in ciminal justice – I said I’m working on my master’s in that subject. My background is 100% military.
And funny you mention the hypothetical of cops shooting someone with a toy gun…
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart
There’s a video of that incident too – and it doesn’t look good for the cops involved.
There’s also this: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/deputy-killed-calif-boy-carrying-toy-gun-won-face-charges-article-1.1858306
In that second instance, the deputy will not face charges – but I ask why not? If I lived in California, and I shot and killed someone who I thought had a gun, but really they were holding a stick or a toy gun, or whatever, you can bet your life that I’d be facing criminal charges of some sort. Why are cops any different? They don’t have a license to kill.
As for “intent” in the Powell case – the only thing I see Powell was intent on doing was getting himself killed. Mission accomplished.
No, not for life. Just two years, and a Felony record that will exclude him from ever working as an LEO ever again. That IS the standard sentence for negligent homicide, isn’t it? The funny thing is, under the law applied to civilians, even if you sat in the patrol car while your partner used deadly force, you would be found equally guilty. Go ahead, explain how this is not true. Good luck justifying.
Cops are a joke. FBI, DEA, ATF, Border Patrol and other federal agencies are the only ones who should be militarized. Not the local oinker who “puts his life on the line everyday”. Absurd.
I am not militarized…I drove a crown vic and carry a glock and I wear a tan uniform. The only officer’s on my dept who carry machine guns and have Bearcats are the 30 SWAT officers who are full time SWAT. So tell me again how I am militarized? BTW they only have two bearcats.
“So tell me again how I am militarized?”
If you are mis-trained by your superiors to reflexively (unthinkingly) blast away at pop-up ‘enemies’ in any format of a killhouse target range or environment, you have been militarized.
Consider.
Not trained that way.
You don’t have a rifle in the trunk?
I’m sorry , but the men and women who are tasked with protecting the citizens of this country , who are given weapons and are responsible for these life and death situations , should be held to a little bit of a higher standard than “cops are people too”. Unfortunately far too many make these “mistakes”. If the military had that attitude , that we are human and make mistakes (frequently) …. I have to wonder if we would be having this discussion in German right now.
If American taxpayers are not allowed to make mistakes without a fair justice system, who will pay your salary? I am sure there is a rational behind the conviction rates of citizens being directly tied to their income.
Seems to me that you are on a high horse Justin. There are also plenty of assholes in the military, and ostensibly are one of them. I am a veteran and have worked in many foreign countries myself, and one thing I did learn is to keep my FAT MOUTH SHUT when I do not have experience in somebody else’s field. My drill instructor told me that “opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink!” So little boy, when you do the job of ANY LEO give me a call.
Well, that was productive. Do you feel better?
Justin, there are roughly 950,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the United States, who answered approximately 190,000,000 911 calls last year. That does not included traffic stops, people waving you down etc.. Think about how many people and pets we interact with every minute of the day. My guess is that if most cops are as awful as we’re made out to be, there would be a hell of a lot more stories. Or at least enough that they wouldn’t keep repeatedly telling the same story over and over, trying to incite people into a frenzy. It is very easy to sit back safely in your comfy bed at night and judge people who would die to save your life ,whether you like us or not. You have no idea what this profession entails until you do it.
Leslie, none of that is relevant to what we are actually talking about here.
Actually, it has everything to do with the discussion. Just because you don’t like to acknowledge how little these things really happen, doesn’t make it irrelevant. That is the problem with you and people like you, the truth doesn’t matter if it doesn’t agree with your cause.
Ok, Leslie. First off, I have repeatedly acknowledged how rare these instances are, so I’m not sure wtf you’re talking about there.
Second, I don’t have a cause. So again, wtf are you talking about? Me and people like me? Do you mean people who don’t think all cops are great? People who see when constitutional and civil rights are being violated? Because those things are both true….I don’t have an agenda here. I’ve never once said anything negative about LE as a whole or as an institution. I’ve merely pointed out those rare situations and a cited a few examples of where LEOs have been out of line. Now you, on the other hand, clearly have a cause, and you, not me, are the one who’s ignoring the truth. Saying that things rarely happen doesn’t dismiss the fact that those things did, in fact happen. Saying that the odds of it happening are slim do not change the fact that the odds are these things will happen again.
With those statistics, it would seem that every man, woman, and child over five years old has to deal with a cop once a year. Your numbers are wrong. Or, they are right, and we do, in fact live in a police state. There is no reason an American Citizen should not be able to live their entire lives without a single contact with cops. Instead, even though you manage to attempt to extort money or an ego boost from 90% of the population, every year for their whole lives, makes you exactly what your conscience tells you. A really bad person.
Justin, sure there are some cops who murder (just like dentists and baristas murder), and some are crooked, but consider how the US police stacks against what I’ve seen in some of the countries of the EU. The former Easter Bloc countries had police that first suffered from not being able to do anything due to past regime’s abuses. They were replaced by scared rookies manipulated by Russian, ex-KGB mafia and made sure to show up on calls late, once the shooting was over. Now, the cops over there are crooked. So are the courts. Unless you’re rich, you’re screwed. I just got back from over there and have heard some really bad stories. Reminded me of … Mexico?
It doesn’t come down to just percentages. The US doesn’t seem to have the overall culture of corruption that you can see at other places. People here don’t *generally* join the police because they want to get rich on bribes. Over there, they do.
I am sure your examples are well researched. What are the percentages, and what’s the response in terms of investigating all that? I think we do pretty well here in the US. (That’s why I’m a cancelled Czech.)
you are a quack and I can put a hundred dollars on this that if i called the Seattle Homicide (Not HOMOCIDE) division… they would call you an Idiot. It would appear that you must be the hulk and when you get mad.. you tear out objects from a concrete walk and point them at people.. This little piece of writing you just did proves to anyone on these boards of how big of an idiot you are. Tell me Simon… as you were sitting there pointing a street sign at him… what would you have done if he reached behind him and pulled a gun? would you have been like the black ninja on G.I Joe and deflect all the bullets with your bus sign? no.. you would be dead… Anyone who is truly law enforcement that is on this forum would NEVER and i mean NEVER place a private citizen in jeopardy of getting harmed let alone help them establish a perimeter… go back to playing call of duty or battlefield child and leave the real work to the men who are “trained” to do it
Look up a murder victim named Roland,”rolly” hansen. You will find a link to the Seattle Times. There you will find the facts. The man I personally co=ordinated the take-down on was named Thomas McMahon. After he murdered a 65 year old man in cold blood, by smashing his head in with his fists, he told five other people in the house to clean up the mess. Tommy got a ten year sentence. The five accomplices all got one year in prison. Look it up. Why would I lie? I am not a cop, so I haven’t been trained to lie tin every situation.
I cannot nor will I speak on behalf of every police officer out there as I have not been deemed their spokesman but I can speak for myself and for those I serve with. I cannot nor will I ever lie for a fellow officer as it goes against my beliefs in the Justice system. I believe in accountability and the truth. But I will say that I will always back any fellow officer in a situation that shows that they put forth their best efforts and made a mistake. I will not hid nor downplay any mistake made and hold them accountable but I will not blame them and fry them because of it. People react to situations poorly sometimes but it does not mean they are bad people or should be thrown to the wolves. I believe in the ethical code in which I work under wholeheartedly and will always stand by my fellow officer
Hey good attitude. Maybe you should apply the same latitude to the citizens who pay your check?
Did you make up those fictional calls from a John Grisham novel. I call bùllshït on every bit of that.
If you don’t think cops have murdered people, google the film clip of the Albuquerque PD shooting a homeless guy a couple of months ago – a cold blooded killing!
No it wasn’t a cold blooded killing. Cold blooded would’ve been if they shot and killed him as soon as they got there. Trying to talk the guy down for two hours proves that.
Oh, I get it Niwot! You are a dumb ass!
Murder any unarmed black teenagers yet Nazi? I won’t expect a response, as you are probably beating an innocent man for fun, out of frustration because your wife is fucking a gangbanger behind your back, so you might be tied up in divorce court. I don’t expect many answers from psychopathic sadists like you, I suspect it is because of the overwhelming urge you have to blow your head off each day. Cheers!
It’s not my fault you don’t understand the law with regards to police officers, but I can see that I have touched a nerve by your angry assault on me and my family. Let me express just how much I don’t give a fùck you uneducated ignorant aśśhat.
Bravo wolfhunter11! Thank you. Although he does make one chuckle with all that inane babble. lol!
WolfHunter11, It is clear that this Simon character has nothing good to add to a great article that deserved a great discussion. He has not given a single point in which I could honestly articulate as being educated. I find reading his replies to actually dumb me down.
It really is easy to poison a well that is already full of shit
You DO like to throw that “logical fallacy” term around a lot. How about I use the term sweeping generalizatoin for your post. YOU have contributed exactly nothing to the discussion with this post that paints “them” as warrantless, dog killing, cold blooded people shooters…
At what point did I make a single sweeping generalization?
all anecdotes. Don’t sensationalize law enforcement problems to attempt to make it a nationwide crisis.
All are real examples that have happened in recent months – from various places all across the country….Nobody is saying it’s a crisis. We’re just saying it’s really dumb to pretend that they didn’t happen or that they couldn’t happen again.
Right. So, take those examples and measure them against the number of contacts/interactions police had during the same time period. Then measure them against incidents in any other profession- intentional or not.
I’m not sure why the ratio of incidents is relevant. Other professions don’t have the same authority or expectations as LE.
Whether you guys (it seems to only be LEOs defending LEOs here) want to admit it or not, the reporting of bad cops, and cops breaking the law, and cops violating constitutional rights, etc is extremely rampant right now, thanks to the emergence of social media. I don’t make these stories up. I don’t believe these stories are representative of more than a fraction of incidents with LE. I do believe, however, that these things actually have happened. I also believe that there’s no reason to not expect it to happen again.
You make me laugh so hard I almost soiled myself.
Lol. What an imbecile!
Simon is an imbecile and troll who has had his lunch money taken from him more than a few times.
so right before we roll down the car window are we supposed to call miss Cleo for conformation as to whether the cop outside is bad or good?
If it’s a lawful stop your window better roll down but I think we both know that you already know that.
I was educated on the practices of bad cops by my drivers education teacher. he had some rules for us to memorize, 1. Never unlock your door or roll your window down any further than is necessary to slide out your drivers license. 2. Always keep a bottle of booze in the car. 3.Why? because in a single vehicile accident while you have been drinking, he advised us to take the booze, walk to a nearby house, call the police so yopu won’t get in trouble for leaving the scene, and then give the cops time to show up at your car, then walk up to them consuming the booze. Explain to them that you had nothing to drink before the accident, but you took a few sips to take the edge off of your nerves after the accident. This leaves the officer in a bind. He can not prove you were drunk before the crash. He can’t write you for leaving the scene, because you followed the proper protocol. He is left with at most giving you a non-driving offence of drinking in public. So, for this to work… make sure they see you drinking as you walk up to them. 4. If you want to kill someone, just run them over with your car, and then start pounding the whiskey in the glovebox. The most you will get is two years for each dead body, because in the effort to insist that a drunk driver has no control, they give up any chance at proving pre-meditation. I sure don’t know what you were taught in drivers ed, but my teacher taught us not just how to get a drivers license, but to keep it as well.
The fact that there are “few badge heavy aggressors in respect to the total number of LEOs” is not a fallacy. It is a factual statement which doesn’t have a source. This has nothing to do with being concerned with bad officers, both things can be true, i.e there are relatively few bad cops but we still must be concerned with those who are. Please review the definition of logical fallacy.
Do you really believe that? There are some truly good cops out here but there are more in my opinion that think they are the shit just because of the badge. In my county (and I’ve seen this first hand at work) other officers will taunt inmates as they are getting out of jail on bond or completion of sentence and try to make them mad enough to fight just to get them to get another charge just because they don’t like the guy. . I guess it depends on where you live, but in the tennessee area there are tons of badge heavy aggressor. -Fact
there may be some cops out there that think they are the shit because of the badge but that doesn’t mean there isn’t those who don’t feel they are the shit because they have a hells angels logo on their leathers… I personally don’t think this small piece of metal makes me a billy bad ass, what i do think it does for me is show proof to people that I am here to protect and to serve. To allow me to stand out and be seen by those who need the help and also to be seen by those who wish to cause harm and to maybe make them think twice about doing something stupid.
The problem is not just with the bad cops, but with their departments, governments and apologists standing behind bad cops after they’ve revealed themselves. When a cop makes a fatal mistake like killing a civilian, it shouldn’t be a foregone conclusion that they will be cleared of any wrongdoing. There is no justice to be had against the police.
So for me at least, the hate is at a departmental level. There are good departments and bad departments. The good departments serve their community. The bad departments serve themselves.
Yes, there are a low percentage of badge abusers, just like in comparison there is a very low percentage of drunk drivers compared to the overall number of drivers on the street…..doesn’t change the fact that as a society we still take EVERY drunk drivers seriously and punish to the full extent of the law. We hear things like “one drunk driver is one too many” So as a society as well as our legal system, they make such a HUGE deal about the negative decisions of such a low percentage of the driving population and we are all suppose to agree with the decisions they make toward handling those individuals (i.e. punishment for the crime). Now maybe the badge abusers are of a low percentage, but I say “one badge abuser is one too many.” The low percentages mean nothing until you’re the one pulled over and harassed by a power hungry LEO who thinks HE/SHE decides what the law should be and how it should be interpreted.
That is because you are required by law to hire women. Hows that working out for ya?
So, just what the fuck is a ” Badge Heavy Aggressor”. That is pathetic double-speak for what the really are, Violent, abusive police. Say it like it is, you brainwashed clone. That means you have no capacity to decide right and wrong yourself. I figured you might have some reading comprehension issues.
I don’t know about the people in Boston, but I remember thinking that if that were me living in that neighborhood, I sure as shootin’ would NOT have allowed the cops into my house to search for the kid. In fact, I would have ignored the martial law order and curfews and have started my own search party to find the murdering psychopaths.
Cops don’t have a monopoly on community defense or protection.
We may not have the monopoly but we have the legal authority which is not afforded to non law enforcement officers.
See, that’s where you’re incorrect.
I have complete legal authority to defend my family and my property. I also have complete legal authority to refuse a search of my property if you don’t have either a warrant or probable cause to search my property.
This is a perfect example of where the following famous quote matters: Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither.
Complete legal authority? Not sure what state you are in that affords you that, or what your definition of legal authority is.
You sound like someone that couldn’t get hired as a cop and now resent them for having the authority you apparently seek.
Ok, so refraining from the ad hominem arguments you’re trying to get into, I’ll give you a quick lesson on legal rights and authorities…
You, as a police officer, have zero right to search my property without either my consent, a warrant or probably cause. If you don’t know what gives me that right, then I’d highly suggest you read Article 4 of the US Constitution, which states: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
I currently reside in the state of Florida, which goes even farther than the 4th Amendment and gives me the explicit right to use lethal force to defend my person and my property with the “Castle Doctrine” which can be found in Title XLVI, Chapter 776.013 of the Florida Statutes.
So, using the given scenario of a crazed lunatic terrorists on the loose in my neighborhood, I already have reasonable suspicion of anyone entering my property without legal authority or without my consent. I have every right to use lethal force against anyone I reasonably think might be that crazed person, and I also have a legal right to refuse a search of my property.
Finally, like I said at the beginning of this post, I won’t get into a pissing contest with you, but I can assure you that I have never once tried to get hired as a police officer or attempted to join a police force, enter a police academy nor anything else related to law enforcement. So, I can assure you that I have no resentment towards those entities.
I do, however, have the cognitive reasoning ability to discern that there are bad cops out there.
The right to defend your property and vigilante justice are two differing things. Yes you have the right to defend your home and property from both those meaning to do you harm and from unreasonable search and seizure by the government (i.e. police), but no, you do not, as a private citizen, have the right to round up a posse and arrest bad guys. I think that was the point wolfhunter was tying to make. I don’t doubt for a moment that some cops have committed murder and gone outside of their job description and the confines of the law, but since we’re slinging mud here, i don’t doubt some military guys have done the same (abu garib?). Bad people are everywhere, cops, soldiers, the clergy… Don’t make generalized statements about the whole when only a few are the problem.
I actually do have a right to arrest people, but that’s not the point here.
And yes, there are bad military people – lots of them. You don’t and won’t see or hear me saying otherwise.
Finally, never once did I make a generalized statement about a whole. In fact, I very specifically stated that the bad cops are a minority.
Just to be argumentative, there is no “Article 4” of the US Constitution. It’s called the 4th Amendment, and there IS an exigent circumstances exemption to it…so technically, your forgot another reason police can enter your home.
I stand corrected! That was a major brain fart on my part. I had the Florida Statutes on my mind. My bad!
There are actually 7 exceptions to a warrantless search.
I’m not aware of very many states, if any, where a person does NOT have legal authority to protect his life, his family, and his property, or where the police can search without either of the conditions Justin mentioned.
Kentucky and Florida are two states that immediately come to mind when I think of states that are very heavily in favor of self-defense and protection of private property. The “stand your ground” laws that people often whine about when someone defends himself and doesn’t back down from a thug. There is a quote in Kentucky from an old Kentucky Supreme Court case: “It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to.”
While the threat of police officers illegally entering your residence is about as high as that of dying in a plane crash, it doesn’t change the fact that Justin is right about the Boston situation. No one should be told they can’t leave their house, and neighbors should have banded together to help hunt the muslim terrorists down but that’s not what happened, it being the liberal northeast and all.
I am not familiar with the laws of every state, but in this state you can defend yourself basically when backed into a corner. There is no stand your ground law here. Not sure about the legislative reasoning, but I’d have to imagine they were trying to prevent vigilantism and escalation incidents.
You can use deadly force to defend your property? If so, what is life like in the 1870’s?
And you’re completely right, no one should be told to stay in the safety of their home while law enforcement search for a homicidal person. They should grab their pitchfork and form a posse to hunt down the person. I’m sure that would end well. Gotta imagine everyone would be on the same page and no mistakes would happen in that scenario.
“and neighbors should have banded together to help hunt the muslim terrorists down but that’s not what happened, it being the liberal northeast and all”
This was perhaps a unique situation for the command and control to -prevent- that exact thing by trying to keep everyone away from contact with the persons, and in using such a heavy hand in trying to acquire them.
As the area surveillance pictures released by the hacker community Wednesday of that week (iirc) showed, those two brothers were never in possession of a backpack of either the size nor color of the one involved in the explosion. And one of the brothers was an FBI informant. That fellow, despite surrendering and being taken in custody in healthy shape, was somehow subsequently killed and torn apart as if repeatedly run over by automobiles, or something similar.
The remaining brother, hiding in the boat, managed to survive an extended murderous hail of gunfire against the boat, was videotaped being taken into custody in healthy shape, but somehow arrived subsequently with a serious puncture wound to his vocal chords.
The “Why?” of any of this I would leave up to you, .. but simple math it is not.
Evidently you do not understand the concept of “Martial Law”
and what rights the citizens no longer have.
Your criminal justice training should have addressed that.
Apparently, YOU are the one who doesn’t understand martial law – it’s not a police action, but a military one, and generally has to be either declared by the President and approved by congress, or by a state governor when using the National Guard.
What happened in Boston was not “martial law”.
The murdering psychopaths you speak of were set up just like Lee Harvey Oswald. What you need to do is check the internet for Sandy Hook and Boston Marathon bombing Hoaxes. While the info is still available that is.
Ok, dude…
False. I was asking the question why they had suspended people’s civil liberties and started searching homes at gunpoint while it was still live on TV. So were a lot of people, and I think our concerns were justified because of the fact that it was just a random guy looking out his window that led to finding the second bomber.
Actually there was much concern about that.
Actually that’s the first thing I thought when I saw military convoys in the streets…that’s the the first time I realized how the Iraqi people felt when I rolled through their neighborhoods.
You’re kidding right? No one was afraid? And you know this how, exactly? It looked to me like many of those who were pulled out of their houses by militarized cops were afraid. And btw. How exactly was the last terrorist caught? Was is great police work or something? No it wasn’t.
Oh, to expand on your premise. Do you think the poor women whose Blue Tacoma was shot to pieces in the Chris Doerner manhunt were scared? I’d have to say yes. I know I would be. How many bullet holes in that truck again? What about the guy that was almost killed in the Honda Ridgeline? Think he might have been scared?
Yea right. No reason at all to be afraid.
Nathan Meyer, it amazes me how you and others group all Law Enforcement together when a few get video taped basically doing bad things. It happens, the world is not perfect. Bad eggs in all professions alike. But if you can sit behind your keyboard and Monday morning QB like all good little key board warriors do, have at it. I love it when the street lawyers come out of the wood work when a cop makes a mistake and likes to pen on their FB how they would reacted if given the same situation. We are not all the same, and I hate a bad cop as much as the next. All in all there very few bad cops when you consider how many departments there are. But keep posting how we should do our job if that entertains you. But I can assume, that like everyone else, including all the anti police groups like “Cop Watch” etc when you need help you will be the 1st in line to call 911. “Sometimes it’s better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt”.
Just for the record, calling 911 would be my 2nd act.
And you guys (all cops, coincidentally) are failing to recognize or admit one thing here – nobody is saying that all cops are bad. We’re simply pointing out a few examples of when cops were bad, or made poor decisions that resulted in the loss of life or serious damage to others.
If you guys can’t concede that these things actually happened, and that we as a general public have a right to question why these things happened or if they can happen again, then there’s really no point in having a discussion at all. If you’re only retort is “Well, we’re all human and make mistakes” or “well, it was only once or two incidents, and we respond to millions, so it’s not worth worrying about” then again, there’s really no point in having a discussion.
Nobody is telling anyone how they should do their jobs, and nobody is pointing fingers, making sweeping generalizations, or slinging mud (except a few people who have done so in response to me).
In what way is this sycophantic? Is it your assertion that anyone who is supportive of LEO must be a sycophant? Careful, your bias is showing.
Nah…it’s hate. I hear it a lot.
Thanks for the info….but I have no desire to be a cop…never have….
That’s interesting, I am of rather high intelligence, graduated from college and have been a police officer for almost 11 years..hmmm..Oh, and just for your information, most police departments require a college degree as a part of the hiring process. Now go ahead and think of something else ingenious to say while you wait for your mommy to make you a sandwich.
I’ll call a hippie before I call you.